Better Teaching: Only Stuff That Works

Gene Tavernetti: Welcome to Better Teaching, Only Stuff That Works, a podcast for teachers, instructional coaches, administrators, and anyone else who supports teachers in the classroom.

This show is a proud member of the BE Podcast Network shows that help you go beyond education.

Find all our shows@bepodcastnetwork.com.

I Am Gene Tavernetti the host for this podcast.

And my goal for this episode, like all episodes, is that you laugh at least once and that you leave with an actionable idea for better teaching.

A quick reminder, no cliches, no buzzwords.

Only stuff that works.

I was so excited to have an opportunity to speak to my guest today.

and the reason I was so excited about this is that we share a belief about how to best develop professional, positive relationships with teachers and that is not to leave them alone, but to observe them more frequently and to be in the classrooms and see what they're doing.

So my guest today is Craig Randall.

Craig is the developer and author of Trust-Based Observations.

Craig has spent the last 30 years plus in education working as a counselor, coach, teacher, and principal.

Craig spends the majority of his time training school leaders all over the globe in the trust-based observation system.

He works with leaders training TBO Mastery.

And transforming the world of teacher observations to a model of trust and support that fosters growth mindsets, teaching innovation, and a school-wide culture of trust.

In addition, Craig speaks at conferences.

He's working on a follow-up book and hosts the 20 Minutes of Learning Brilliance on the Road with trust-based observations, a podcast where he and some of the amazing teachers he observe, engage in meaningful dialogue about what makes good teaching and learning.

I think this is a good one for everybody.

I know you'll enjoy it.

Craig, it is wonderful to see you in quote unquote person to have this chat, to talk about, trust-based observations and what your experience has been in developing better relationships with teachers to help make them better.

So welcome.

Craig Randall: Thanks.

I appreciate being here.

It was great for us.

We've been able to chat a bit in the last month, I guess, and so now we.

Actually get to see each other for the first time, which is always nice.

Gene Tavernetti: It's always nice.

And the other thing that we did, which was made it exciting for me to have this conversation is that we swapped books and

Craig Randall: did, I know Mine's, my, mine's downstairs, but yeah, I read one.

I'm still starting -=ready to start the second one

Gene Tavernetti: Well, you'll see after you read those books, just how much we have in common.

yeah.

And so, that's a lot of what we're gonna be talking about today.

But again, your book is called Trust-Based Observations.

What's kind of the thesis of your book and how did you get to write that book?

Craig Randall: Look, I'm not sure I knew all of it before I started writing it, so, but it, I'll say this, it developed organically over time, starting with my supervision class where the man who's my mentor said to need to be in classes every day, supporting teachers, observing them.

Helping 'em grow, asking them what they were doing that worked what to help students learn, asking 'em what they might do differently and focusing on strengths.

It started with that and it built from that really without knowing I was building anything until somebody said, I. Craig, you need to protect your work.

And I said, what are you talking about naively?

And he said, you created something here.

And I thought, wow, thanks.

And then I thought I should present at a conference and it went really well.

I thought, gosh, maybe I should write an article.

And it got accepted.

And then that led to writing a book.

But the thesis really is.

Teacher observations right now, research shows are not improving teaching and learning.

It shows maybe worse than that.

It's causing harm.

It lowers teacher's sense of self-efficacy, and it causes teachers to play it safe and not take risks trying new practice.

If we want collective teacher efficacy, we certainly can't be doing something with observation that.

Lowering self-efficacy.

So really just through nine core areas of practice, we do a continuous series of observations where we focus on strengths.

We ask teachers those two questions, and we really work to build relational trust with our teachers so they know we can come into their classroom, observe them, see them trying something new.

And even though it's unlikely have that thing they're trying.

Not go well be a disaster, a train wreck, but as opposed to traditional observations where they'd be freaking out over that, they're not worried because they know we're gonna say, gene, I love it that you are trying something new.

And when that happens, what will teachers do?

They will persist in trying new things.

And when we've created those psychologically safe spaces, they try new things.

They're more open to suggest suggestions, and they improve teaching and learning for our kids, which is our most important job.

Gene Tavernetti: Well, let's back up a little bit because.

You know, anytime somebody reads something or listen to, listens to something they don't recognize the bad things that they're doing, or, no, I don't wanna say bad things, but not maybe really effective things.

So, can you talk about, you talked about the, many of the observations and evaluations that we're doing now that are just aren't effective.

What are some of the characteristics?

What are some of the things that are occurring that are counterproductive?

That the trust-based observations countered.

Craig Randall: Sure.

Well, the.

First and foremost, research shows we're rating pedagogy.

I mean, Danielson, Marzano, cell, five D, all of them, they rate pedagogy and they're rate an inordinately large number of areas of indicators of practice.

And if you were to look at each one of those indicators on their own, you'd say, oh yeah, that makes sense.

We ought to score teachers on that so they can get better.

But the research shows as soon as I started to grade your pedagogy.

Then teachers feel threatened and they play it safe.

Relational trust diminishes and they don't take risks.

So the very first thing that we do is we don't rate pedagogy.

One of the other things that research, like from the New teachers project says is that any type of a template that we're going to use.

It has to be 10 or less indicators.

Otherwise we lose the forest through the trees and it becomes a tick box exercise instead of releasing the art and crafted teaching.

And I know you and I both have heard this as well as any listener out there, the dog and pony show, and it's true.

Teachers put on lessons when they're being observed.

To get those boxes ticked so they can put it in the rear view mirror.

And then we're having fake conversations about fake practice.

So because of the ratings, but also because of the number of indicators.

So we just have nine core areas of pedagogy in line with that like it.

Danielson has 76, Marzano has 60 University of Washington self ideas 37, and you're just not, you just can't see it all.

And we don't also, if something's not existing, like many of those models now I have to, as a teacher, prove that, no, I actually do that and I have to spend my valuable time that could be spent.

Prepping lessons on demonstrating to you why we do that.

If something's not there, we say the absence of is not in a negative.

I mean, potentially over time it might be an area to work on, but we also focus diligently on looking at it from a strength based model.

Like the clinical model of supervision outta Harvard, like the first modern, the pre-observation conference observation, post-observation conference said the person being observed is in an incredibly vulnerable position.

This is pre rubrics, and they're saying that, and they said, we have to work to build trusting relationships with them.

And they said one of the most important ways to do that is by focusing on strengths.

And so we do, we focus on strengths.

And if I don't rate something, it can be a strength.

It might not be a high strength, but it's a strength.

So let's say example, for example, I saw somebody informatively assessing, but they were maybe doing it in that traditional asking kids in those same seven kids raise their hand.

And then they're assuming that everyone it knows it, right?

Which is not great practice yet.

It's formative assessment.

And if I see it at one level and I share that, I saw it, but I don't put a score on it, then that works.

It's easier for me to build you up as opposed to if I say, oh, well no, it's only at that level, then you get defensive and you don't want to work on things.

Gene Tavernetti: So you've used you used the term relational trust several times.

Several times now.

So, one of the things that is, one of the buzzwords, and no buzzwords on this podcast is relationships.

Is relationships.

Relationships, so

Can you talk about that a little bit about developing relationships and what is the and this may sound counter counterproductive, it may sound cold, but what's the goal of developing that relationship when you're working with a teacher?

Craig Randall: Yeah, it's a great question.

So let, I'm gonna go back to you saying no buzzwords and stuff, because I think that's a really important thing.

And I was just presenting at a conference last week and.

One of the things, one of my slides in the presentation shows like five different quotes that are about trust.

Like the ones you'll see on LinkedIn or whatever and or relationship.

And you read this little quote and you're like yeah.

drive me crazy because they're just words they don't like, what, what does any of that mean without this, and this is key how.

How do you build relationships?

How do you build trust?

Right?

And so.

Trust takes time.

Relationships take time.

Brene Brown talks about the connection between vulnerability, risk taking, and trust.

She says vulnerability isn't a bad thing if it's too high.

Oftentimes that's a good protection mechanism that's saying something's wrong, and the way we're doing it now is making teachers feel super vulnerable.

She says The way you lower sense of vulnerability, which then gets people more willing to embrace risk taking and trying new things is by building trust.

And she has a great analogy.

If you think about a jar that, because trust takes time, it's putting a marble at a time into a jar, and you want to fill that jar up.

And so what we do is we do a whole series of how's actions to build trust.

Like that's what our reflective conversation is all about.

I'll just, I don't wanna go on too long, but We'll, like the very first trust marble is we have the reflective conversation in the teacher's room because they feel safer in their room.

We ask permission to have the conversation when we get there.

That's a marble.

We sit beside you, not across from you, because psychological research on hierarchy in the workplace says when we sit across from you magnifies that different.

They feel safer.

We show the form to them.

We start by asking questions instead of telling, we tell them.

That part that I said earlier about.

When you come into your room, the what the goal of trust-based observation does.

We take all these specific actions that build trust, that build relationship, and we take our time.

We don't offer a suggestion the first or second or even third time.

There's exceptions because that jar's not full.

So those are some of the things that build trust.

Gene Tavernetti: So you are you're alluding to something that we talked about before we started recording, and it's something in your book.

And that is the fact that when you are training administrators in this trust-based observation manner of working with teachers.

Is that it may be that, you have observed a teacher four times before there's any sort of suggestions.

And I think I like that as a specific as a specific suggestion versus it's gonna take time, you know, because you always should.

It is gonna take time to develop relationships.

Well, it's not only time, but there are activities within that time, within that timeframe.

And for you, it is these.

It is.

These observations.

Tell us a little.

Craig Randall: conversations more specifically.

Gene Tavernetti: So, so there's no reflective conversations until after the four visits.

Craig Randall: No.

There every, so we have an observation and we have a reflective conversation and we start the reflective conversation in their room by saying, what were you doing to help students learn?

And if you had the chance to do it again, might won't.

You do differently?

And then we tell them the goal of trust based observations, and then we observe what we saw, we share the evidence of, but as opposed to like, you.

The compliment sandwich or the two stars on the wish, or the noticings and wonderings or the blows and grows.

We don't offer a suggestion.

Now there's an, if you're like a brand new teacher, your classroom management's a train wreck.

Obviously we don't wait 'cause they need help right away.

But for everyone else, we're filling that and by having those conversations.

Those first three, four visits that's filling that jar up.

Can I actually tell you how that came to be?

The fourth visit

Gene Tavernetti: Oh sure.

Yeah.

Craig Randall: my very first year as an assistant principal, I didn't know anything about what I was doing other than how to do observations because we practiced it in my supervision class.

I. And I am at an international school in Korea and I am doing these conversations and it's so transformatively different than people's experience with observations that teachers old and new are saying, you're the best principal I ever had.

I didn't know anything about what I was doing except this one tiny little area observations, although it's not a tiny area, and so I didn't give suggestive feedback.

Because I thought, wow what if I gave a suggestion and you're good at it, but I haven't seen you do it yet.

Right.

That's I just something new.

I knew that was wrong, but really the bigger reason was I knew the teachers were loving me and I was afraid if I gave conversations they wouldn't like me anymore.

And something really.

Fascinating happened.

I didn't dawn on me until years later, but the third and fourth round, well over half the teachers at the end of the conversation as I was getting up to leave would say okay, but what can I get better at?

And later on when I realized I'd actually had accidentally been developing this thing, I realized that was trust and like using that Brene Browns speech, that was my filling the jar up.

And so that's how we came to the fourth round.

I.

Gene Tavernetti: Okay.

Because they do want to know that, you know, TE

Craig Randall: If they feel safe, if they feel like they're in a psychologically safe space,

Gene Tavernetti: yeah.

Craig Randall: if they don't, then they're gonna be cautious and resist it.

Gene Tavernetti: So you are oh man.

I have so many questions to ask you, Craig.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna withhold a little bit.

So you suggest 20 minute observations and you don't notify the teacher before you're coming.

Craig Randall: Which, can I throw this in before you answer your ask your

Gene Tavernetti: Oh, yeah, absolutely.

I.

Craig Randall: Is once teachers feel the strength-based, I care about you.

Nature of the reflective conversation.

They love that they're unannounced.

They love that they're unannounced because they don't have to fake prepare something and they don't have to worry about it.

Just wanted to throw that in.

Gene Tavernetti: Yeah, no, I think it, you have to have that level, whether it's an administrator instructional coach, whomever.

They have to be able to see the teachers in their natural state, you know, to see what's going on.

Craig Randall: Complete waste of time, otherwise,

Gene Tavernetti: so you did the 20 minutes and you don't have a pre do you ever do any sort of observation with a pre-conference

Craig Randall: No then it's not gonna be real teaching.

I mean, it's human nature.

If we do it, you're gonna change what you do.

If I know when you're gonna be there, and then we have the conversation the next day.

Gene Tavernetti: So here is, I don't debate with guests, but here, you know, here is a view, here is something that I'm gonna, I'm gonna throw out and maybe it's a little bit ahead of time, but I think we've laid a little bit of the groundwork in that you're not looking at 70 checkpoints or 35 checkpoints.

You're looking at nine areas.

Craig Randall: Nine core areas of practice.

Gene Tavernetti: Nine core areas of practice.

Okay?

And.

I've been in with a teacher and had a couple observations and these are some, these are a couple core areas where I see that this teacher might improve.

And so how do you facilitate the improvement if we don't have a, an observation?

Focusing on, you know, like, Craig, I want you to come in.

I love you.

I want you to come in and see how I've improved on this particular piece.

Craig Randall: One.

If anybody asks, I'll always come in.

So just to be clear, if you ask, I'll always, so that's not a pre-observation conference, but if you want me to come in and watch you for sure, let's talk about then what happens when we're ready to offer a suggestion.

So my lens is always, which one of those nine areas in a differentiated way for each teacher, if I helped, that teacher would make the biggest improvement in teaching and learning for.

For that teacher.

And now maybe I'll differentiate this a little bit from the coaching model.

With a traditional coaching model, it's usually what does the teacher wanna work on?

And I have no issue with that.

It,

Gene Tavernetti: Craig, you just, you see me stop.

Let's not I don't, I do not believe in that at all.

Okay.

Craig Randall: And I are on the same page, but like a Jim Knight or a lot of that.

Okay.

So good.

We'll put that aside 'cause we're

Gene Tavernetti: put that aside.

Craig Randall: Okay, so, all right.

We'll have, we'll virtual fist bump over that one, and so.

And I always say, every week when I'm training a school, I learn something new because somebody, some trainee says, Hey Craig, what about this?

So my point to that is I'm the guy that developed trust-based observations and I have tons of blind spots on trust-based observations.

So what we do is we look at those nine areas and because teachers might not realize what those blind spots are.

We notice which one it is.

So this is where I think we really differentiate from a traditional observation model, because oftentimes it's like, Hey, I'd like you to work on on your descriptive progress feedback, or, and here's an article at best, which we would never say to a third grader, Hey, those multiplication facts need work.

Here's a times table.

I'll see you in a month.

Right.

We would never do that.

So we wanna model what we want teachers to do with students.

So then we have our reflective conversation at that fourth round, let's just say as an example, like normal.

And at the very end then it's time for the suggestion.

This very first part is really key.

We ask permission to offer the suggestion.

So I'm gonna say, Jean, I have a suggestion on the working memory.

And especially the addition of reflection and processing activities, would you like to hear?

I could tell you that I want to work on that, and you would say yes, but you're gonna be strategically compliant because no one really likes to be told what to do, but just by semantically changing and asking permission.

You feel like you have choice and you're way more willing to engage with me.

And I've people say, what if they say no?

I had one person in my career say no, and she just wasn't ready yet.

Three times later she was, so they'd say yes.

And so then now one area on the foreign gene that's really also different with trust-based observations is it's hyperlinked to professional development resource area for each one of the nine areas of pedagogy.

So let's say it was that reflection and processing activities.

So I'm probably gonna have a hard copy of this, but have the electronic copy first.

And we have this one document on that has 78 different activities that could be these one to two minute processing activities.

And I'm gonna say, Jean, let's look at this list.

Like if you were gonna pick six or eight of those that you really resonated with you, what would they be?

Let's highlight those.

So Jean, if we were going to start to put this into practice.

You were just gonna do just one of your classes, which one would you want to do?

Great.

Let's pull up that lesson for tomorrow.

Looking at that lesson, do you think there's any natural breaks that align with the cognitive load capacity of your kids or close to that?

Okay.

At that first one, which one of those six do you think you'd like to put in there?

Okay, let's write that one down.

So we go all the way through that.

Then we're gonna say so.

So Gene.

Let's do this tomorrow.

There's four ways we can do this, and I know you agree, disagree on the first one.

It doesn't really happen though.

It's more just a throw out there.

So they have a feeling of choice.

But I know this 'cause we talked before, but we say, would you like me to model it for you?

Would you like to co-teach it?

Would you like to teach it and have me give you feedback?

And it could either be suggested feedback in the moment or later.

Later, or would you like to try it on your own and tell me about it later?

But if you try it on your own sometimes, and we do it, it gets worse before it gets better.

That's called an implementation dip.

And if that happens', notorious, we're just throwing it away and going back to what we were gonna do.

But remember, I'm gonna be back a month later, so that happens.

You have to tell me.

People almost always choose.

Do it and give me feedback.

Sometimes I'll choose co-teaching.

I haven't ever had anybody actually have me model it yet.

So then the next day I go in and observe you and I'm looking, but more just on this one area, right?

This and then we have another conversation.

And I say what?

Well with that area, what would you like to keep working on in that area?

And here's the most important question.

What can I do to support you?

So by the next time I come in, that's built regularly into your practice.

So what have I done?

I in, in a low stakes, non-threatening way, I've set the expectation that now we're gonna do that.

And of course I will provide whatever help or have my coach pro provide whatever help.

Gene Tavernetti: You know, it, two, two things.

You know, you talked about giving them a choice whether they want a suggestion.

I geek out so much when I'm working with teachers and I get so excited about, you know, gosh, if they just did this one little thing I have a saying that I'll tell them Craig, and if you like it, smile and say, Jean, that I like that.

And if you don't like it, just smile and kind of the same, it's kind of the same

Craig Randall: is it's you're throwing choice in there in a subtle way.

Gene Tavernetti: He's throwing choice in there in a subtle way.

And it's getting them to think about, no, I may not do it that way, but I get why you think it might be valuable.

So it's so, it's a way to do it.

And Craig, I'm gonna tell you I'm laughing because I think we have a distinction without a difference possibly.

Okay.

And that is, you don't do a pre-observation, but after you just described that reflective conversation and we talked about it, and I'm coming back tomorrow.

That's a pre, that's a pre-observation and it's not important.

It's, it is not, it's not important, what you call it, but it's important that, like you said, that there's a focus.

We've talked about how to get better and when I come back.

And support and we're and we're gonna, we're gonna provide this.

And I know, like you said earlier, I know this is new.

Thank you for trying it.

Thank you for trying this because it's the first time you're doing it, possibly.

And don't expect it to be perfect.

Craig Randall: No.

And oftentimes it goes way better than they think it does, but they have to know the worst case scenario can happen and they're still gonna be supported.

Gene Tavernetti: Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

So we talked about those nine, nine components and you could find them in your book.

Do you know 'em off the top of your head, the nine components that you look at

Craig Randall: Y. Yeah, I do.

And also you can go to the website trust base.com, and there's a link that says observation form.

And then you can have the form sent to you so you can download it.

Yeah, of course I know them.

The first is learning targets.

And we always say it doesn't matter what your style of school is, it could be learning intention, learning objective.

It could be essential question by the way.

And there's eight core elements that research says are tied to that.

I'm not gonna go into all those, but we also do a student interview to ask about the learning.

So we ask the students w. Not students, but a student.

Or perhaps too.

What are you supposed to be learning?

What is the learning target?

How does it have value in the real world?

Then we kind of ask that meta question, how do you know when you've learned it?

So that's the first one.

The second one is rapport and relationship teacher, student report and relationship.

The third one is classroom and behavior management.

The next one is cooperative learning.

The next one is working memory, cognitive load capacity.

The next one is questioning slash higher order thinking skills.

The next one, these two kind of go together, are checks for understanding or formative assessment and descriptive progress feedback.

The last one is descriptive.

I mean, differentiation.

Specific differentiation.

There's a 10th area that's not pedagogy, though.

There's really eight different learning principles, main ways that we help students learn.

Lecture, direct in lecture, direct instruction, the use of audio, visual demonstration and modeling, reading.

Class discussion pair or team discussion, learning by doing and teaching others.

And so in the working memory table, we timestamp activities and then at the end, and then we put them down on the bottom.

And we want people to spend the majority of their time in those bottom ones because they're more actively involved in research that's higher learning.

And so when it's minutes or 11 or more.

In that other words, the majority of the lesson, we write the total minutes down to celebrate that, to get them to do more.

So that's the nine areas plus the bonus.

Gene Tavernetti: Now, would those nine areas change from school to school where you work?

Craig Randall: So generally speaking, I would say no.

Yet we always just say we're willing to work with you on, on, on whatever and adjust.

And so we also, oftentimes people do the same things, but they have different terminology.

So we always say change the terminology, but also say, the research says that you can have up to 10, like from the new teacher's project.

And so we have nine areas, and so we will have schools that will add a 10th area.

For example, we've worked on a number of special needs schools and they have more teaching assistants than teachers, so they'll add a 10th one.

Effective collaboration between teacher and teacher assistant, or we've had some faith-based schools, like Catholic schools or whatever, where they'll add one, like Catholic values or whatever.

And we're open to people doing whatever they want.

And if somebody felt like this didn't work for them.

I'm just saying, well, let's chat about it.

One of the things I'll say though is we do have that toolbox possibilities, that clickable professional development resource, so we just always say, if you want to change something, we would really encourage you to create your own toolbox that works the same way.

Gene Tavernetti: Okay.

H how do those nine areas when you a school adopts those nine areas?

Maybe wholesale?

They take those and then we wanna develop another part of your book that I think was, that I really agreed with, that I think is effective, is that that the professional development isn't just general, it's going to be specific to the staff based on needs based on assessments, based on taking a, looking at data.

However, they have whatever their process is for taking a look at their needs.

So that is come to, it's a conclusion that has been, that decision has been made collaboratively.

In a collaborative fashion with the staff.

So, do all of those does the pd, will it dovetail nicely with those nine components, or does, or,

Craig Randall: So, yeah, I got you.

So what I'll say is we're always working on supporting you in two ways.

One in a differentiated way, like we just talked about with each teacher, like which one of those nine areas.

But then what one of the things that starts to happen is when we are in classes as frequently as we are, I know the book says it's one thing, we've modified it.

Now we wanna see you once every three to four weeks.

So as I start to see all my teachers so much more.

I really know who my in-house experts are.

So starting in year two, really, or at the end of year one, we tap into those in-house experts.

And I'll say even though there's nine areas, we combine relationships and behavior management and we combine formative assessment, descriptive progress, feedback.

'cause those just go together.

So for those seven areas, we'll ask people, Hey, we really wanna build mastery in those areas.

We wanna offer monthly professional development.

In each particular area, and we want you or you and someone else to co-facilitate towards building mastery in that area.

We have a list of what mastery in each one of those areas is.

And when you talk about professional development and PE things people complain about.

They complain about one size fits all.

They can complain about one-off pd and they complain about teachers not having autonomy or choice.

So at the beginning of the second year, we let the teachers.

Self rate on those areas of pedagogy, and then choose an annual goal for whichever one of those seven areas they want to work on.

And then they get to participate in those once a month meetings in those, in whichever area they want to grow on.

And.

And we've added an additional question is talk to me about your progress on your annual goal.

So it keeps it front of mind.

And then over years you get, I mean, not that you can't have little quick little to un general beginning unpacking of each of the areas, but year over year you can build yourself up in all of those areas.

Over time.

We actually even facilitate.

Different leaders every year because the people that are training don't get to be learners themselves, like other than being a teacher.

And so at the end of the first year of doing that, we'll ask the people that have been facilitating it, who's your new star, and then we'll have them facilitate it the next year.

So we're always changing who the facilitators are, so then those people can be learners and it just cycles like that.

And so that's how we grow over time.

Everyone.

Gene Tavernetti: So you mentioned in this professional development process, a where they like groups, maybe somebody looking on the same things.

Is that what you described in the book as the PDC versus the PLC

Craig Randall: I do, and I mean the professional development communities and the reason like.

PLCs have changed meaning so much over the year.

I think it meant a lot of things, and now I think people generally think of it as that de four looking at data style is what I think most people think.

And so just to alleviate confusion, I just used a different phrase called professional development communities.

Gene Tavernetti: So it's very possible that PDC professional development community could be across grade level spans.

It could be across.

US

Craig Randall: Oh no, it's for sure it is.

So, and like I could have four fourth grade teachers each choose a different area and each one is working on that one for the year.

Or if they wanted to as a team, I'll choose to work on that one.

That's facilitated by somebody.

They can do it.

We don't, it's autonomy as individuals or a team.

We want you to choose in that one area.

It's important to let them have choice and because I already know I do get to work with you on the area that I personally think is the one that's gonna have the best impact.

Right.

And that can change over the course of a year as I see growth too.

Gene Tavernetti: Oh, I hope so.

I hope it doesn't take a year or two.

Craig Randall: No.

Yeah.

But some are longer, some are shorter.

Right.

But yeah.

Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.

Well, but I, the reason that I said that somewhat facetiously is that's another thing we see in tra I don't even know how to describe in other coaching models, is that there's something that if I've seen you teach three times, Craig, and now there's time for a suggestion, and then we talk about how you're gonna do it.

If you're a competent teacher, it's not gonna take.

You're gonna be able to improve greatly between day two and day three.

Craig Randall: And there's a variety, right?

So I've got my stronger, my middle, and my weaker teachers, and some are gonna take longer or shorter.

So you differentiate.

We are differentiating just like we would want teachers to do with students, right?

Gene Tavernetti: Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Well, what is the biggest number one, how do, why do people call you?

Okay, what are they experiencing?

And then what's the biggest things that administrators have to give up as they begin this work?

Craig Randall: Good question.

So I'll say, look, this is Transformatively different than everything else that's out there and change.

People change at different rates, right?

Malcolm Gladwell Tipping Point talks about the five.

Stages.

There's the the innovators, the early adopters, the early majority, late majority, and laggards.

I always say I never want a laggard to do trust-based observations, but we are still at a point where the people that reach out to us are the innovators or the early adopters.

So they're the people that sometimes they'll just see a social media post and it resonates.

Sometimes they'll get the book, read the first three chapters and go, oh, we need to do this.

And then there's the second group right behind that's like, yeah.

Oh.

Oh, you did it.

Okay.

We'll do it too.

Really, right now we're mostly in that stage 'cause we're new.

So those are the people that are reaching out mostly, and we hope and believe we'll get to other stages down the road.

So in terms of what you have to give up, this is what I'll say.

Besides like just ensuring safety to the school.

My belief is our number one job as school leaders is to improve the quality of teaching and learning on our building in order to better prepare our students to become successful adults.

And so then the question becomes how, and so to me it's trust-based observations is the best way to improve teaching and learning.

So in terms of giving up something, I think I'm gonna frame that as.

How do I choose to spend my time?

And so we all know there's the urgent, we all know there's all these things that come up and take our time and those are always gonna persist.

What I'll say is as soon as I start to, I. Practice and experience trust-based observations like, 'cause we go, I spend my time training schools, as you know.

And so as soon as they start to see the teacher reactions, because the teachers respond so differently, they're so grateful to have strength shared with them because it just doesn't feel that way.

And they also, the number one thing they'll say after we do a round is I'm already thinking about what to get better at without even saying anything.

So as soon as a leader.

Your first experiences are your teacher's feeling like this and your teacher's thinking what to do?

All of a sudden observations, which have been a drudgery, which I didn't necessarily wanna do now start to feel joyful.

So all of a sudden it's easier to do it because now I enjoy it.

So now I have to, now I see, okay, how do I prioritize time?

So one, it depends on what your load is, but let's just say it's gonna be 40 to 80 minutes a day.

Depending on the day of the week that you're doing it.

For some of us, we definitely have to look at our schedules and we have to say, are there things that are on my schedule that aren't as important or that can be more clerical and handed to somebody else, or that I have to put on the back burner and do I have to tell my office manager?

Next 20 minutes I'm in class.

I'm not to be disturbed unless the building's on fire.

Do we have to do those kind of things?

For sure.

So is it taking something off?

I mean, yeah, but I think you're, but you experience the joy of it so it becomes easier to do it.

Gene Tavernetti: Alright,

Craig Randall: it sounds strange to think, and that is an observation being joyful, but it really is.

Gene Tavernetti: you know, it really is, like you say, it is the job.

You know, the school's job is teaching and learning, and administrator's job is to support that.

So support people in getting better.

Craig do you have any questions for me?

I.

Craig Randall: Well, I mean, we've already asked some questions of each other and, think as I finished reading your second book, I'm probably gonna have a ton more questions for you, but I, what I'll say, Jean, is it's always nice to come across people that, one, I really appreciated that you
were questioning me before, you know, when we talked about three or four weeks ago and the things that you were like not quite sure on, you were like, you were probing and digging and I'm always grateful for people that question it and ask it because it helps me to refine my own thinking and so.

I wanna say more than questions at the moment.

I'm grateful.

I'm grateful for your doing that, and I'm grateful for the time.

And I think as I read your book, I'm probably gonna have the same kind of questions to come back at you with in a positive way.

Of course.

Gene Tavernetti: Well, it is, it's been a pleasure.

And just like you said, you know, I think we, we talked at least for a half hour and it gave me more context when I read your book and it, and and I appreciated it.

And then every time it's just like trust-based observations.

Every time there's an encounter, it the relationship that you build relationships.

So, Craig it's been a joy any place.

Anything you like to promote?

Can people, where can people find you on

Craig Randall: So, I mean, obviously you can go to Amazon and get the book trust based Observations.

My website is trust based.com.

So anything there, there's more information.

And I'll tell you one of the cool things is when I'm on the road observing teachers and I really feel like I observed more teachers through the lens of observation than any human being.

And I will see 20 minutes of teaching brilliance regularly.

And around a year ago, year and a half ago at dawned on me, I. I need to share that out.

So I actually interview these teachers and we talk shop about what we saw so other teachers can learn.

So I also have my own podcast called 20 Minutes of Teaching Brilliance on the Road with trust-based Observations.

So if anybody's interested in that, feel free to give it a lesson.

Gene Tavernetti: Great and all that information will be in the show notes.

Craig Ajo, thanks for being on better Teaching, only stuff that

Craig Randall: A joy for me too.

Jean, thank you so much for having me on.

Gene Tavernetti: If you're enjoying these podcasts, tell a friend.

Also, please leave a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.

You can follow me on BlueSky at gTabernetti, on Twitter, x at gTabernetti, and you can learn more about me and the work I do at my website, BlueSky.

Tesscg.

com, that's T E S S C G dot com, where you will also find information about ordering my books, Teach Fast, Focus Adaptable Structure Teaching, and Maximizing the Impact of Coaching Cycles.

Talk to you soon