Better Teaching: Only Stuff That Works

[00:00:00] Welcome to Better Teaching, Only Stuff That Works, a podcast for teachers, instructional coaches, administrators, and anyone else who supports teachers in the classroom. This show is a proud member of the BE Podcast Network shows that help you go beyond education. Find all our shows@bepodcastnetwork.com. I Am Jean Taver Netti, the host for this podcast. And my goal for this episode, like all episodes, is that you laugh at least once and that you leave with an actionable idea for better teaching. A quick reminder, no cliches, no buzzwords. Only stuff that works

It is my honor and privilege to have as my guest today, Patrice Bain. Patrice is a K 12 and university educator and speaker. She is the co author of the U. S. Department of Education's Guide, Organizing Instruction and Study to Improve [00:01:00] Student Learning. And is also the co author of one of her most well known books, and the books that I see most often on principals and teachers bookshelves, and that is Powerful Teaching, Unleash the Science of Learning.

She is also the author of A Parent's Guide to Powerful Teaching, and her latest book, Powerful Classrooms, Evidence Informed Strategies and Resources. Patrice was an Illinois Teacher of the Year finalist, Fulbright Scholar in Europe, featured in international podcasts, webinars, presentations, and popular press, including NOVA and Scientific American.

Bain has contributed to the United Nations UNESCO International Science and Evidence Based Education Assessments, outlining the vision for world education by 2030. It is my extreme pleasure to have Patrice as my guest.

Good morning, Patrice. It's so wonderful to have you on the show. I'm [00:02:00] honored to have you on the show. And so welcome.

Hello, Gene, it is wonderful to be here. Thanks so much for inviting me.

Well, this was, I appreciate you hanging in with me because we had originally scheduled to do this in August when I got COVID. And so you're graciously enough to reschedule. So I really appreciate. that. But so in the introduction, we talked about you know, you've got three books out, and the first one that you really became well known for was the one that you co authored, and that was Powerful Teaching, Unleashing the Science of Learning, and that was about the researchers actually being in your classrooms.

And I heard you tell an interesting story just recently about you going to your principal and getting permission to allow researchers in your classroom, and he had a provision for you. There was a, something that you had to agree to. What was it? I thought it was a very interesting [00:03:00] story.

Well, this was actually my superintendent.

Oh, okay.

The very first question that he asked me was, Why do you want to do this? And my answer was so simple. It was, I really want to know how my students learn. Easy, but not quite. And then he said, I will give you one stipulation. We can do this, but the research has to go along with your teaching. Your teaching does not go along with the research. And that was something that was. It made such a big difference because too often, well, so much research is done at universities with college students in laboratories, and then other [00:04:00] research is often done by pulling kids out of a classroom and having them read a passage and answer some questions or something like that.

But this was truly done within my classroom. Using my teaching, and that was pretty rare. It's still pretty rare, but that's what we really want to know, isn't it? How do kids really learn in an authentic classroom?

exactly. And I think that's that, you know, leads me to my next question. And, you know, you are well known, you know, for retrieval practice promoting retrieval practice in the science of learning movement. I don't know how else to describe it other than a movement. People are very almost evangelical about, you know, because we know this works.

And so we, we want to talk about it. So, When, if I was to be in your classroom, or anybody were to be in your classroom and observed [00:05:00] you, did not know anything about retrieval practice, did not know anything about the science of learning, would they still be able to say, wow, Patrice was a good teacher?

Look at what the kids can do is what I'm trying to ask is, do you have to know research? Do we have to present the research and sell the research to teachers to look at effective teaching? Or is it something that's evident?

Boy, that is a really good question. I, to me, one of the most important things to know is the why. Why are these strategies effective? What purpose do these strategies have? So if they were observing me, I hope they would see they would have seen a class with a lot of being interactive with [00:06:00] each other, with me a lot of retrieval. But what I would most want teachers to know is the reason why I was doing these things. I think that's really important to know the why.

Okay. And they would see that it's evident. And the reason that I asked the question is anytime there is Okay. Over the past 30 years when I've been involved in education, there's always something that says, oh, this is new. This is new. But when you really get to see it it's doesn't look that much different.

It's, it includes the why, which you just described, so that you can be consistent and intentional with what it is that you're doing.

Yes. Yes. So, it's like, okay, how many teachers, probably everyone, will review before an exam, right?

[00:07:00] However, being able to just incorporate retrieval and metacognition, Allowing strategies or using strategies that allow the students to be able to determine what they know versus what they don't know.

It's like it's something that, that teachers do, but maybe not taking it to that next step. Which is evidence based, how to go from review to retrieving or another thing, some really good teachers are going to see, you know, read my book or attend a presentation and say, well, I do that. I do that.

And chances are, yes, you do. But again, here's the reason why it works. And even though you do it, here's a way to be more intentional and more purposeful. You know, if you space, [00:08:00] you know, retrieve the day after you learn something and again, three days later, and then a week later, you know, simple things like that, that are research based that really help those good teachers who are intuitive, make it really make it stick.

And I think you said something you didn't just say it, I have heard you say it, and that is that, that a lot of this is meta, you know, it's, we, we want to teach the kids how to learn, so that they become more effective learners, self learners Themselves because they also know that how did you?

Do that. How did you teach the students this? About retrieval practice and those sorts of things how to become a better student how to study better

Well, it all started with the research in my classroom, so I knew about the research, and I could [00:09:00] create strategies based on that research, but I also, I saw such a big difference, especially with my struggling students, That where they had previously internalized failure, perhaps studying and not doing well and seeing them turn around.

It made me think that learning is like this really big party and struggling students never received the invitation, right? And as teachers, we need to get everybody. Coming to this wonderful learning party and the way I would do it every year on the first day I would always say I'm your teacher and I'm going to teach you how to learn To me that was even more important than the curriculum because if I taught them how to learn my curriculum would stick and so I would start and I am talking right [00:10:00] now, working with sixth graders in world history.

So it was the first time that this appeared in the curriculum in our district. And so, on the first day, I would ask a question, How many of you have studied for a test and didn't do well? And, you know, 95%, if not more, hands go up. And I would just explain, there's a reason why. And It's because the way you studied, we can improve on that.

I can teach you why that happens. And then I would start where the students absolutely could not fail. I knew I wanted retrieval. a very important part of my class. I know I wanted turn and talks. I know I wanted whiteboards. And so, you know, when we first start the beginning of the school year, putting together these procedures, well, I would start on day one with whiteboards and put out their questions that, that no, where [00:11:00] no one would fail, such as what's the latest you slept over the summer?

Okay. They would write it down, share with a partner do a big think, pair, share, and I would do things like, what is your worst school launch to you, and they would answer that, and so what happens is you get the students involved in thinking and writing and talking to a partner and sharing in a class, so I would do that well before I ever got into curriculum, so students were very familiar, I taught them retrieval, so I would do that well before I ever got into curriculum, so students were very familiar, I taught them retrieval, I taught them spacing, that we're going to go over this again tomorrow.

A week later, I would say, remember a week ago, we discussed, well, we're retrieving again, this is spacing. So I would teach my students all along exactly what these power tools were, why they were effective, and students started to see that They [00:12:00] work. And that, of course, then got the students even more invested in learning how to learn.

You have You have presented all over the world on this content about retrieval practice and just what you and what you just described and You've also worked at open conferences and conferences. Usually people are there because they're buying what you're selling. They're already excited about seeing Patrice and now they get to see her in person, but you've also worked at a lot of schools.

And how is there any difference in the reception from teachers? You know, at schools, when you talk about this content, is there any pushback? I guess is what my question is.

I try to, when I'm working with schools, I really try to get everyone involved. And to model to practice what I [00:13:00] preach and model so teachers can see that, Oh, I can do that because we all know teachers are so, so overworked and With totally overcrowded plates. And if I'm working with a school, one of the first things they might think would be, Oh, here's one more thing.

And I think because I was in the classroom for well over 25 years, I know what it was like to sit through professional development where it did not help my teaching. It did not do anything to help my students. And. I often called it the fad of the semester club because you know, here wasn't the newest, shiniest object that we had to incorporate.

And so because I have that background, I'm I really take that to [00:14:00] heart. When I'm talking to teachers, I want to maximize the use of their time and to show them that it can be done. And I show them the evidence and the wise. Yes,

and what you talk about with the retrieval practice, it reminds me. Very much of other things that I have learned that off the top of my head. I can't think of any, but this is one of those things retrieval practice and how to study. It's 1 of those things. I wish that I had known, you know, and I think that's 1 of the reasons that I think it is.

It is powerful. Too, because not only is it something that an adult wishes they had known and they wish that it had been done this way, but it's also evidence based because there are so many things that as adults, we will go to a P. D. or we will go to conference and we'll hear this idea and we'll think, Oh, that's wonderful.

But we don't realize we're [00:15:00] hearing it as. adult experts versus what it's like not to know this, where this is, I would, I'm going to say non offensive. And I think especially the way that, that you just presented that, you know, how you work with teachers is that you may not have known this, but this is life changing stuff.

And it's not that difficult.

absolutely.

You know, one of the things, you know, that it's very clear that you are that you are a big advocate of is using evidence based practices and, you know, you talked about your 25 years in the classroom and I know we hear a lot of things about evidence based now, but it seems to me that in all the years that I was p d.

And there was something new. It was also evidence based. You know, well that's what they would say, you know, this is research space. This is the research space. And so now I think, you know, when someone like you who is really [00:16:00] talking about evidence that sometimes there, there may be pushback also, you know, it's like the boy who cried Wolf.

You know, why is your evidence different? And what does a teacher need to know to be able to sift through you know, what really is evidence based versus maybe a publisher coming in and say no, this is based on research. How do you address that with teachers? Or does it even come up?

Well, first of all, a quick little story. I once met with an assistant principal in my building who actually told me, Oh, whenever you say something, just say it's research based and people will buy it. And I was like, what? What? So think something so important because you'll see that it was based in research.

Da. It's a very simple question for a teacher to ask [00:17:00] on what research is this based, you know, to whoever is presenting or a book that's written, you know, on what research is it based and. There is a wonderful book out called The Goldilocks Map by Andrew Watson that is so on target with this very question because number one, teachers are often not familiar with how to read the research or the research is in these super lengthy journals, trying to, and we don't have time to read that.

So Andrew, in his book, The Goldilocks Map takes us to show us, you know this is a quick way, you know, he gives us sites like Google scholar, you know, just take a look here. Shows us how to take a look at a [00:18:00] research paper and get the gist, And if you have spent two or three minutes and it doesn't apply, let it go, you know, so there are ways to help teachers try to understand in quick ways because we don't have a lot of time, but never be afraid to ask on what evidence is this based.

Very, you know, very good. I'm going to put Andrew's book in the notes of this because it is critical. And going back to something else that you said earlier about what, you know, who was the population? You know, there are so many you know, I'll read an abstract about something and it's graduate students in medical school.

Well, for crying out loud, how does that going to pertain to my low SES, you know, high EL learner population. So I, yeah and I think that's critical. So, so thank you for that. You know, one of the things that. Is you talked about the [00:19:00] fad of the month, like, like let's break it down even to bi monthly fads.

And that is all the educated, the proliferation of educational platforms in the techno world. What do you think of those? How do teachers, do you have any advice for teachers or what do you think about the those types of platforms will promote, you know, retrieval practice?

Yeah, it's like you could spend a year trying to dive through everything that's available. Right? And to me, that is really overwhelming. How do I do it? I look to people I trust, number one, and get recommendations from them. But also just take a look. If it says, you know, get retrieval practice using this or that.

Well, try it, you know, give yourself two minutes on it, Are you [00:20:00] retrieving? Is it actually working? Is it actually based on research? So I think number one, go to a trusted source and number two, try it out yourself and see, does this fit what I need it to do in my classroom? And I think using those two things can help weed through the multitude of platforms that are available.

Well, you know, and I'm going to go back to a previous answer that you gave when you said the first thing you do is you have the kids use whiteboards and there are so many, I remember doing a training once and I passed out whiteboards because I'm like you, I want to model what we're saying and somebody picked up the whiteboard and in the snarky voice said, Oh, a low tech tablet and thinking, you know, there are so many times when The tool is the whiteboard.

I mean, you can't do it so [00:21:00] much. You could do it so much more quickly. You can, you know, you don't have to worry. Is the Internet down? And so I'm not saying I'm not a Luddite, but there are times when it just gets in the way. It's just, you know, again, it's that fad, that neomania, you know, what's new this week?

You know, 1 thing I think you've, you don't fit into this category anymore, Patrice, but you may have fit into this category in the past. I meet a lot of teachers at conferences. Who, uh, they're speaking at conferences all over the country. And I asked them, so, you know, how about in your district?

You know, do you ever do work in your district? And many times they'll say they don't even know what I do. You know, the people in their district never asked them, you know, to present and did that happen to you, you know, that you were out. You know, presenting this information to the world, and yet you weren't known in your district, [00:22:00] or did you have a different experience?

It depends on the time frame. No, it didn't. And yes, it did. So, was so fortunate to work under a principal for 20 years. The same principal who was just amazing, who support Dr Roger Chamberlain, who supported his teachers, who whenever I would go to him with one of my harebrained ideas, he would say, let's make it happen. How can we make this

Yeah,

And and I had a wonderful superintendent, Mr Jack Turner.

And so, you know, Yes, it was. I was able to share a lot of information, but as they retired and new administrators came on board they they had their own [00:23:00] agendas, I guess you could say, and having a teacher who speaks all over didn't really necessarily go with the agenda that they wanted to have. So. Yes, there was times that yes, I was able to share it and people knew what I was doing and other times. No. So it really depended a lot on the administration.

because I think it's such a shame that we don't look inward, because there's so much talent. I've never been to a school that didn't have talented teachers. Some of them were very new. Some of them were very experienced but what would we do? Oh, we've got to go get the expert, you know, and no cliche about the experts 50 miles from home or it's the County or it's, you know, and it's just, and it's just too bad because I think that.

That the teachers that I've talked to want to share they want to help they want to mentor they want to They [00:24:00] you know, they want to help their colleagues, but they're just not asked.

Right. And I really think that in many places this is changing as a result of districts really bringing in or elevating teachers into becoming instructional coaches. And I think You know, in the past, it seemed you were a teacher or you were an administrator, and when you taught to a certain, you know, if you wanted to advance, the only way you could advance was to leave the classroom and become an administrator.

But now, There's this, these wonderful opportunities in many districts to have instructional coaches where the coaches can really help elevate the teachers and promote more of a teacher leadership within the district. And I think that is something [00:25:00] that really needs to be cultivated because that's really a way to help.

It just helps the whole district, you know, it can bring folks together, it can elevate voices and I think that's something that in the past was really missing, but I see more opportunities for that now.

Yeah here I absolutely agree and think you know, you didn't do it as a district or site administrator But I think that's one of the things that you did in your latest book is taking, you know, what teachers were doing and allowing them to be part of your part of the story in your book, which again, elevates them.

Now, what happens in their district? I don't know. Could you talk a little bit about your newest book, powerful classrooms and how those stories were gathered and told.

Well, it all started because in some parts of my life I'm very organized, [00:26:00] and in some parts I am totally not. And one way I was not was that I would frequently get tagged on social media, you know, using this strategy of mine or that strategy of mine or, you know, whatever. And it's like, Oh, that looks good.

I'll bookmark it. Oh, that looks good. I'll download it. And set one day. Once again, somebody tagged me and I realized, boy, where's everything that I've been saving for years? And I couldn't find them. And I thought, you know, I need to just stop what I'm doing and put everything together. And so that's what prompted this.

And as I did that, I had this idea Well, if I like everything in one place, maybe others would too. And so that got me started. And then I realized, you know, I worked with teachers all over the world and they're, you know, whether it's [00:27:00] Kazakhstan or Poland or Colorado, people are using many of my strategies.

Why not? illustrate and amplify the voices of people who are using the science of learning in their classrooms. And so I thought, Oh, that would be good in a book. And then the last part was, I was thinking one day about Oh, my edu heroes, these people that I just hold on such a high level because they've made such a difference to me.

Dan Willingham and Barbara Oakley and just all these wonderful people. And I had an idea and it was, who influences them? And so, I came up with three questions. One, of your own work. What are you most proud of or would like to share? What work of someone else's would you recommend? And who influences you?

And [00:28:00] I got, I don't know, I think over 40 people from all over the world who have highly influenced me who are well known. And they answered those questions. And so it just all came together into this book. But actually, and it even starts with. The research in my classroom was the first classroom in the United States where cognitive scientists studied how kids learn in a classroom, not a pullout or not, you know, in a laboratory, but actually teaching with fire drills and, you know, everything.

And so in powerful teaching. You know, I allude to it a little bit and it's research in my classroom and research in Pooja's classroom and other studies, but I wanted a place where I could really talk about what the research was like in my classroom using my voice and my interpretation. And so between the [00:29:00] research and the strategies and the instructional leaders and teachers and influencers, it just all came together.

And Wiley who published Powerful Teaching said this would be a great companion book to Powerful Teaching and boom. And so I'm really proud of this book because I think this is my, this is kind of my thank you my my gift that it will really help teachers incorporate the science of learning into their classrooms. It's just filled with strategies and resources.

And not to put you on the spot, but I think you might remember this. You, in the session where I was able to hear you talk about this a little bit, you mentioned the number of strategies in your book And I can't remember what the number was, but it was at least [00:30:00] 50. Was that?

Yeah, it's over 50.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that is the, you know, it's a tribute to you for what you started, but it's also a tribute to how you are as a person and humility by saying it doesn't have to be exactly the way it was in my first book.

In fact, You guys have made it better and then I because I worry about that with some things that come into schools. It's like you have to do this and you have to do it exactly this way. And not how that's not how it is. That's not how classrooms are.

no. In fact, I like to use the phrase, you do you, because no one knows your students like you do, or your curriculum like you do, or your administration, or your community. And so, to me, One of the something that I find so flattering [00:31:00] is if someone can take something that I started and now use it help best their students in their classroom.

Absolutely. No. Well, and I think that is what you know, I think both books. Well, you have the two books about the powerful teaching powerful classrooms where you talk about retrieval practice and all the different strategies that, that they can use, but then you had the companion book for adult for parents.

Yes, that is. Excuse me. I also have a parent's guide to powerful teaching, and my stipulations for that book was. It had to be less than 100 pages and it had to be less than 10 because I really wanted it totally accessible and it is. Twofold [00:32:00] purpose. One that parents can get this and really help their kids at home.

Here's strategies you can use at home that are really going to help. And secondly, teachers, we know how busy we are. And it was a way to have a dialogue between a teacher and a parent. So if teachers are using this the science of learning, they could easily recommend. Here's a book. And so when I'm talking about retrieval or spacing here, Patrice is going to explain it to you right there.

So I think that is that has its own little niche. And that one was Published by John Kapp. The others are Wiley.

Yeah. Well, and I think it's important again, just as Yeah. Experience teachers want to help and share parents, many parents want to help head, you know, with their kids, but just don't know how. And they may have spent, [00:33:00] you know, hours with their kids, you know, doing ineffective strategies.

That is so absolutely on target. Because we've all been to school. So, often we think, well we made it through and so, this worked for me, surely it's going to work. But too often, those are the ineffective strategies. And it is so easy to Do a couple quick little things that turn it around to make it effective and you know, when parents see their kids study, you know, at the kitchen table for an hour and a half for an exam and not do well, that is.

It's heartbreaking for the student and the parent. You know, I saw my child studying, but they were not studying effectively. And so being able to have this conversation where students can study more effectively, [00:34:00] which means they don't have to spend as much time and they get better grades. And parents aren't having to see their children struggle so hard.

It's such a win.

you know, and then when the parents are working with the children whose teacher is doing the same techniques, It's just you get a virtuous cycle there. Then the kids even bought in to what the parents are doing. So,

in fact, in my in, the parent's guide, I call it the teaching triangle, that this all important collaboration when the teacher and the parent and the student are all on the same page, it's like, of course, the student is going to be very successful.

yeah. Well, Patrice, you know, it's always a joy talking to you. Do you have any questions for me?

I do! So, I am wondering What is ahead in your future? Do you have any other [00:35:00] books coming down the road?

Well, I'm working on a couple projects with a couple people and one has to do with It's part of a group called Schools Next, and the impetus for the group was to attempt to re, rethink what a school day looks like for children who are post pandemic who are post smartphones, who are addicted to screens and how to reclaim them.

I guess, and how school can reclaim them because so that's 1 project we're working on. We're working on a book about that right now. And we are hoping to be able to work with schools. We have started. We are. Our thought is to work from the boardroom. To parents. And so we're starting with parents.

We do have we do have some school districts who have contracted with us to work with parents [00:36:00] and with some ideas of how to detox the kids. But the reality is the parents are in the same situation. So, you know, it's like, you needed the parent book, we need to, the parents as well, to say, this is what's happening to your kid, this is how you're impacting it and these are some things that we can do to mitigate that.

We are not,

it's the same thing that teaching triangle, you know, when we work together, whether it's on technology or learning or whatever, it's like, we all want what's best for our kids. Right. And rather than having any ed. you know, being adversaries at all. It's like working together is so powerful.

Yeah, and it's the only, and it's the only way. I mean, the schools have the kids. It doesn't, you know, you can work all day at schools, but it doesn't take much to undo all the work, you know, [00:37:00] so, so absolutely right. The tell me that term again. What did you call it? The teaching triad, the

The teaching triangle.

teaching triangle.

I knew it was alliterative and I just wanted to get it. All right. Patrice, always a joy talking to you, and I hope we run into each other soon.

Oh, I hope so. Gene, always great talking to you and good luck with your new books and your new projects. It's good stuff.

Thank you. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Patrice.

Bye.

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