Better Teaching: Only Stuff That Works

Gene Tavernetti: Welcome to Better Teaching, Only Stuff That Works, a podcast for teachers, instructional coaches, administrators, and anyone else who supports teachers in the classroom.

This show is a proud member of the BE Podcast Network shows that help you go beyond education.

Find all our shows@bepodcastnetwork.com.

I Am Gene Tavernetti the host for this podcast.

And my goal for this episode, like all episodes, is that you laugh at least once and that you leave with an actionable idea for better teaching.

A quick reminder, no cliches, no buzzwords.

Only stuff that works.

Today's episode is truly for everyone today, and my guest today is Sandra Brunet.

Sandra is a seasoned educational leader with over 25 years of experience in K 12 education, specializing in school leadership, leadership, coaching, instructional design, and data-driven professional development.

As a certified data informed growth coach, Sandra has worked with school districts and educational leaders across the US helping to drive academic improvements in foster inclusive, high performing school cultures.

Her expertise includes strategic planning, blended learning, inclusion and success for all students, and executive coaching for superintendents, principals and district leaders.

Sandra's notable roles include leading the development of five year strategic plans for school districts coaching school leaders at Clark County School District, and facilitating the Executive and Coaches Academy for the Kentucky Department of Education.

She has a proven track record of increasing student achievement, including improving the graduation rate at Hawaii Technology Academy by 19%.

She has also significantly expanded access to honors level courses for traditionally marginalized populations.

In addition to her coaching and leadership work, Sandra has co-authored Leading With Administrator Clarity and the Formative Assessment Handbook.

She holds a Master's in Educational Leadership from Cal State University, Northridge and a Bachelor's in Communication Studies from UCLA.

Currently, Sandra is based in Panama City Beach, Florida, where she continues her work at Educational consultant, coach, and facilitators.

This is gonna be a good one for everybody in education.

I. Good

morning, Sandra.

How are you?

Good to have you on Better teaching only stuff that works.

Sandra Brunet: Good morning.

Thank you for having me, Jean.

Gene Tavernetti: Well.

I say good morning.

You are good afternoon.

Where are you located right now?

Sandra Brunet: I am in Panama City Beach, Florida at home on this beautiful Saturday.

I.

Gene Tavernetti: Alright, Well good.

I'm in California on this beautiful morning.

Excited about talking to you.

So in the introduction, it was clear that you have had a lot of experiences at a lot of different levels in the education system.

And one, so because there's, you've had so much experience, could you describe the type of work you do with schools and districts, including audiences, you know, is it site administration, teachers, school boards, et cetera?

Just kind of expand a little bit on what we talked about in your introduction.

Sandra Brunet: Absolutely.

So in addition to obviously having been a teacher in a classroom and a school level leader, I most recently have moved into a position called a data informed Growth coach.

So I work with an organization called Engage to Learn, and I push into schools and districts working with.

School level leaders, site administrators, district leaders, and when I'm really lucky, even teachers.

And we really look at data-driven improvements with instructional practices and competency-based coaching in order to push schools forward.

So I primarily focus on district and school level leadership.

Really helping them create a system of success for all students.

And I do that through face-to-face and virtual coaching sessions, really all across the country.

So at any given week, you can find me in Nevada, in California, in Kentucky, in New Jersey, in Texas, here in Florida, in Washington.

All with the same goal of really improving leadership practices and instructional strategies.

Gene Tavernetti: So well just to clarify because it's not a cliche or a buzzword, but the idea of data driven.

So what sort of data do you look at?

Because if we're in a classroom may, we may be looking at micro data like formative assessments, which I know you're an expert on because you have co-authored a book on formative assessment.

But as you're taking a look at a school district, what kind of data are you leading them?

Through in examining.

Sandra Brunet: Absolutely.

Well, we use competency-based rubrics, and these rubrics really are rooted in the idea of adult learning theory, where each person that we work with and coach individually sets a targeted goal to meet a specific.

Growth indicator or goal, and then they work towards that between each coach coaching session, and then they actually come back with evidence.

That they have been working towards that specific goal.

So as an example, if I were working with a teacher of emergent bilingual students and that teacher wanted to focus on increasing collaboration, she may set a goal of using anchor charts and sentence stems three days a week for the next four weeks.

And then when we come back together, we would discuss.

The evidence of that goal, she would bring back specific artifacts from students, but then we would also talk about what that looked like and felt like.

And so our data is really based on adult learning theory and the goals developed by the professionals in the field based on what they wanna do and grow and achieve.

Gene Tavernetti: How do.

How do they come up with those goals?

Like, for example, you talked about second language learners, that there are some specific strategies that are generally agreed upon evidence-based.

How are those delivered?

Shared with teachers, for example?

Sandra Brunet: So great question.

So when we initially set those meeting with district level leaders.

We first ca have the conversation of what their area of focus is.

So that can range anywhere from Bambrick and santoyo's data-driven instruction work to working with multilingual learners to improving the culture of the office staff at a school.

So really they pick their area of focus and then we work side by side with them to discover what we call competencies or areas in which we want to grow individuals.

Then we develop what we call an asset-based rubric where we define what.

What that would look like at each level as somebody, we're growing through that.

And then we work with district leaders to align what some artifacts might be.

But our artifact list isn't exhaustive, so we may say, okay, to improve communication with our language learners.

We could use anchor charts or sentence stems or ab conversation protocols.

But at the end of the day, the teacher may come up with something outside of that box that still pushes the envelope forward.

And so we go with that and we have those conversations.

So it's really a, an ongoing process.

It really is evidence-based coaching where we come back with artifacts and we talk about it and we kind of iterate and make shifts based on what's working and what's not.

'cause not everything works the same.

Gene Tavernetti: Okay.

You and I could geek out for a long time about coaching.

So let's start a little bit here so we know you know, I met you years ago.

I don't even know if I met personally or if it was vicariously through.

A colleague of mine did we ever work together

Sandra Brunet: Well, so I sat in as a teacher on some professional development sessions that you ran, but we didn't like, so I knew you probably more than you knew me back then.

Gene Tavernetti: Okay.

Okay.

So as we think about coaching, getting back to coaching here, the idea is that, what we don't want to happen is the teacher meets with you, you set up this goal, and they meet it or not, and you talk about it and you discuss how you might be able to meet the school.

And we know that.

What really is gonna make a difference is going up to that next level, whether they're working with their onsite coach or a district or an administrator, not a district administrator, but an administrator to go in and check on them.

So how does that coordinated when you begin to work?

You know, even though you're brought in to work with teachers necessarily on second language, how do you coordinate that those evidence-based practices with the administration?

Sandra Brunet: Absolutely.

That's a wonderful question and I'm glad that you asked.

So we have a process we called we call coaching at coaches academy.

And so typically anytime that I'll go in and work with a teacher that work with the teacher will be shadowed by the instructional coach on the campus.

So I'll be sort of in the course of a day.

Doing maybe five coaching sessions directly with teachers that are being observed by the campus instructional coach.

And then a sixth session of the day where I'll actually be coaching the campus instructional coach on coaching the teachers.

And over the seven or eight or 12 sessions we have together over the course of the year.

We slowly kind of, do the gradual release of responsibility, right?

Where that, that Coach's Academy instructional coach begins to slowly take over the process of coaching because essentially we are most effective when we work ourselves out of a job.

We want this to sustain.

That's how we know we had an impact.

Gene Tavernetti: You know what's interesting?

Work exactly the same way when I work with schools.

In fact, that is one of the must dos if you're gonna work with us, you're gonna have an administrator and or coach with us all the time so that you know exactly what we're saying.

And the teacher knows.

That the administrator knows, that the coach knows that we're all, that, we're all on this together.

So, so I think that's real powerful and that the idea of that gradual release is so important.

And the other thing that I wanna ask you because we make it a condition, we make it a condition of us working there.

And even though it's a condition, it is very hard sometimes initially to get the, to get that person in there.

Especially if it's an administrator, a coach, you know, they know they have to learn this.

But an administrator, you know, how do you let them know, or how do they become aware of how important it is for them to know exactly what it is you're doing and for them to be able to take over.

Sandra Brunet: That's an excellent question.

And it's funny that you asked that 'cause I was just thinking, I wonder if I should explain and model what this looks like when I'm working with like a superintendent who's coaching his site level leaders, for example.

And really what we, the first thing.

That we do is before we ever actually launch the coaching, we have just a full day.

Meeting with that leader.

So whether that's the instructional coach where we walk them through the training and understanding all of our coaching methodologies, or whether that's the superintendent.

And during that time, we really help them to understand how critical their role is in the effectiveness and success of this coaching and carrying it on moving forward.

And so oftentimes, luckily, oftentimes, if the superintendent brings us in, then he or she is already, pretty, a pretty big proponent of the work.

But there are times where we're brought in through grants or district, different district level opportunities.

And that's the time where we get to sell ourselves a little and explain some of the impact that we have had and kind of share the research on what we've done to, to effectively coach and then hopefully bring them on board.

But it's, you know, it, you know, Jean, it's relationships, right?

You spend the time and you build it.

Gene Tavernetti: And so, you know, as you say that I kind of see your work and tell me if I'm wrong, I'm gonna paraphrase that your entry into a school you may be working, depending who brought you in teacher level up, or you may be starting, 'cause I know you work with district level people and district level down.

Am I is that, did I say that halfway accurately or?

Sandra Brunet: Yes.

I mean, se we can really be brought in by, at any level for any specific need, and so sometimes it comes out through a needs assessment and strategic planning.

Where a planning team and a board may decide that we want the principles to have some coaching on professional learning community as an example.

Or it could be, you know, in Kentucky we were brought in by KDE, by the Department of Education to work on the success for all and inclusion practices across the schools in Kentucky.

So we worked with the entire state.

So, so every it never looks the same because it truly is a personalized program that we walk alongside the district school or department of education to develop.

And so, yeah, I mean, you hit it on the head.

It's just a little different everywhere.

Gene Tavernetti: Okay, so, so does it make a difference?

Because, you know, we can talk about working with superintendents and working with school boards and working with all that, but if it doesn't happen in the classroom they wasted their money.

Although I'm sure they were glad to see you Sandy and spend time with you is always, probably, always a joy.

But what they're really looking at is results in the classroom.

And so if you go, does it make a difference where you go in you know who brought you in?

And how it's received by the teachers.

Sandra Brunet: You know, that's a really great question.

There's times where it can because really when we first come in and we're first kind of introduced to coaching, we do really encourage that they, when they select teachers to be a part of the coaching process, but they're not selecting teachers for coaching because they think that they're not good.

Right?

Where we really want them to find.

Teachers who are open to growth opportunities because that will build the momentum.

So I would say, you know, there are times where we run into some teachers who are resistant and we work through that.

But by and large we really do try to make sure, especially as we initially move into a school, our district to do coaching, that we have a group of willing participants 'cause that'll help move us along more quickly and really make that impact.

Gene Tavernetti: Okay.

Alright, great.

So, it's.

You talked about, you know, the teachers that are open to growth opportunities.

That's a wonderful way to say that.

So you've got teachers who are open to growth opportunities and you talked about setting goals with the teacher for improvement.

Now and one of the things that I always talk about in coaching is that teachers are professionals.

We need to treat them as professionals.

With the caveat that we are here, this is an unsaid thing, we're here because they can get better.

And so sometimes there are teachers, they may be open to growth, but really don't, they're not at that level of competency yet where they even know what they don't know and know what they need to know.

How do you do that with, how do you.

How do you finesse that, I guess, with the teachers who just quite aren't there, but are open to growth?

Sandra Brunet: Absolutely.

Gene Tavernetti: set those, how do you set those goals, I guess is what I'm saying?

Sandra Brunet: And that really, that's really where our asset-based rubric comes into play because we use.

What I would say is like, kind of a four point asset based rubric.

So even at the very entry level, if a teacher were to come in at level one, they have accomplished some things.

And that's the reality is that every teacher in the classroom is doing some things very effectively.

And so we wanna take a moment and pause and celebrate those and honor the things that are already working.

Because when teachers feel that their effectiveness is already being honored, then they're more willing to.

Have some self-actualization about areas that they may want to continue to work and grow.

And so a lot of it, and you know this from coaching Jean is using those probing questions to get to the root of where that teacher might wanna go.

So if a teacher says, oh, I already, I absolutely know how to differentiate for my multilingual learners, then rather than saying, okay.

That's great.

Then let's move on.

The questions would be, well, tell me a little bit more about that.

Well, what does that look like in practice?

Well, if this student is doing this and this student is doing this, how do you manage both of those situations and you just really allowing them to, one of our coaching rules is that our coachees, we want them talking at least 50% of the time and we really have short questions to get more information.

And what else?

Tell me more.

What challenges are you facing?

What does that look like?

It's really digging from them and eventually they find their way to, gosh, maybe I wanna work on that a little bit more.

Gene Tavernetti: Well, and I think as you said, you, if you do that skillfully with them, you will be able, you'll be able to get there because I think, you know, a lot of the teachers, they recognize, you know, they recognize that they don't know everything and that there are things that, that you can really help them with.

And.

You not only coach teachers, but you're coaching the district admin.

And I'm thinking that that might even be a heavier lift sometimes talking about things that they don't know.

Sandra Brunet: You

Gene Tavernetti: So how is it the same?

How is it different?

Because I'm and because, you know, they're not the president and we all know that the president has to have a big ego.

Or else they wouldn't be there but if we take that analogy for superintendents, they have an ego as well or they wouldn't have taken on that big role.

How do you deal with that sort of thing?

I.

Sandra Brunet: So that, that's a really good question.

I mean, I really think it is.

It's leaning into celebrating at first sometimes.

We can come into a situation where with every question somebody might wanna prove how they're doing that.

And so I think one of the, one of the

Gene Tavernetti: Even, I'm sorry to interrupt.

Even if they're not, they wanna prove how they're

Sandra Brunet: 100% because maybe what it is that our system is not necessarily designed and rooted in coaching practices.

Our system is designed and rooted in evaluative practices and so.

Shifting the mindset from evaluation to coaching sometimes can take a session or two because I don't need you to prove to me all the things that you're doing great.

I wanna hear where do you wanna grow?

And that is sometimes where the key lies is shifting that mindset and helping them to understand.

That we trust that they're doing a great job and that we're not there to tell them they're not.

It's why our rubric is asset based, but rather how do we hone in on what are the things that you wanna do?

What are your next steps?

What do you have?

What are your big plans for the end of the year?

What's your highest hope for the learners in your district?

Gene Tavernetti: yeah.

You're doing a great job and you were smart enough to bring us in because you know you need to improve.

So let's get there.

Sandra Brunet: Or your school board said so.

Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.

Yeah.

So somebody said, so, so let's get real as quickly as we can so we could talk about how to improve.

So, so you do this work all over all over the country.

What have you found to be the most common areas of need for growth?

Not what you found, how they have expressed it to you.

How you sucked it out of them to get to the greatest areas of need.

Sandra Brunet: What's interesting, like I said we go in and so when I'm working with superintendents and school leaders, something that's come up a lot really recently is is this idea of teacher retention.

So it's something that regionally, no matter where I go, I. I'm hearing again and again that there's teacher shortages, that there's struggles filling the classrooms, and whether this is in a large urban district or in those smaller rural districts that I work with.

I'm also hearing nationally that our, our leaders are struggling to understand the mindset of the newest generation of teachers coming in, those Gen Z teachers.

And you know, if we look at it, those Gen Z teachers are really coming to us and they're drastically different in terms of how they view work how they value work-life balance, and social impact, how they value ongoing conversation versus performance evaluation.

I. So I do get a lot of questions just as of late as to Hey, Sandy, could you develop us a rubric that we could use to improve the way that we're working with our teachers so that our
teachers feel supported so they don't leave us because we need them and we do value them, but they may not feeling it because we are not expressing it in the way that they need to hear it.

So that's something that.

I'm hearing more and more in the last couple of years come out from the leaders that I work with.

And then the other thing is, we're starting to hear this a little bit more across the nation, is just this and you and I have talked about this a ton, gene, but this technology balance and integration and how much tech do we put in front of our students and how much is too much and where is it?

Supplanting human connection.

So those are kind of two things that just pop into my mind.

Gene Tavernetti: Well let, before we go on to technology, because I wanna talk about that some the idea of.

You know, work life balance, whether it's Gen Z, whatever it is, because I'm gonna tell you, I've been along around long enough to know that whatever generation you were born in, the succeeding generation sucks.

They just don't wanna work hard.

They, you know, so that, that has always been, and we've developed, we developed, we have evolved, I guess, would be a better word, as a, as a. Society about how we view work in particular.

But I wanna get your opinion on something that, uh, really bothers me about, you know, what we tell teachers and the way we talk about teaching, and that is that they are heroes, you know, and we'll even ask them, what's your hero?

You know?

I can't think of the word.

It's some cliche, you know, that we ask.

Yeah.

You know what?

Oh, what's your superpower?

What's your superpower?

You know what?

Teaching is a job.

It's a hard job.

And if we've made it so hard that you need to be a hero to be there, then it's it.

We can't blame it on Gen Z. We need to blame it on how we have constructed that job.

What's your thoughts on, what's your thoughts on that?

Sandra Brunet: Absolutely.

I completely agree with what you're saying, that we don't have the expectation of superheroes and that when we.

When we do that is quite a, that's quite a big shoe to fill, right?

For any individual or human being.

So I totally agree with that.

And I also agree with this idea that.

Generationally, we always see that next generation as one that has different values or sees things differently.

But I also do think that we're seeing or what I'm hearing from LE school level leaders is whatever is happening in the cosmos, in this grand world.

We're struggling to put teachers in front of our kids, and there's probably, you and I could sit down for hours and come up with thousands of things that make this job a whole lot harder than it was for me 25 years ago when I first entered the profession.

And so I do think that there's a lot to be said for being thoughtful about how we as leaders set expectations for our teachers and how we.

You know, have that right balance of pressure and support and that's always been what we've had to do.

But I think now more than ever, we need to really be thoughtful because we need teachers in the classrooms connecting with our students.

We cannot replace teachers with technology.

Gene Tavernetti: I, you know, absolutely agree that let me get on my soapbox for one more moment before we talk about technology.

And one of the things that really has legs that I'm surprised that it has legs for as long as it has been.

And that is the idea of, you know.

Getting into a PD and maybe it's a warmup, some sort of you know, warmup.

What am I saying?

What?

Icebreaker.

Icebreaker.

And.

Tell us your why.

Tell us your why.

And you know what, again, I just think that goes with the that's the idea of being a hero, is that you have to have, you know, you're gonna be, you're gonna be the champion for these kids.

Oh, I love kids, et cetera.

And teaching is a job.

Te teaching is a job.

And I think it's okay that after five years a teacher leaves.

You know, because it's not the greatest thing for the school district, or for the site.

But on the other hand, these are individuals and maybe their why is I think I'm pretty good at this and I'm gonna do it for a while.

It doesn't have to be, I'm gonna save the world and all of these poor children look by your face.

I'm not sure you're buying all this that I'm saying.

Sandra Brunet: I'm, so, I know I process in my face sometimes, so I think I'm processing my thoughts on that.

And I think that while I agree with you, that no career pathway has to be a lifetime pathway, I think it's also just important that we understand that there are not specific systemic things that we are doing that are ostracizing people or pushing them out of the profession.

Gene Tavernetti: Absolutely there are things we can do that we should be doing to in training and support, et cetera, et cetera.

So.

So what do you think some of those things are that we might do better to retain the new teachers or any teachers I.

Sandra Brunet: I mean, my answer is that I think that we need to shift.

Our system of evaluation to a system of coaching.

I think that ongoing feedback, conversations, you know, we talk with our teachers all the time about how important in the moment and ongoing feedback is for the development of their students.

And that's truly how students can shift their learning and understanding.

And I think that sometimes we, we talk that talk really well as leaders.

But we don't always walk that walk, and it's a lot more work to say, I'm going to have these 10 teachers that I'm gonna have ongoing conversations with throughout the year, versus checking a box that I completed their evaluation and turned it into my superintendent.

So I think a huge piece of it is coaching.

Gene Tavernetti: Okay, Sandra, I'm gonna get serious for a moment.

I know.

Hard to believe, but one of the, my theory about that my, my theory about that, and you've been an administrator, you've gone through the admin programs, you know, you've gone through when you were a site administrator, you go through the district processes.

This is how we do our evaluation.

This is how we do our observations, blah, blah, blah.

But to get to where you're talking about, you know, where we have a a culture of coaching, a culture of a professional not A PLC where we meet once a week, but actually a professional learning community that is committed to, that, is committed to getting better.

My, my theory is that coaching.

Is still so new.

I mean, you know, when we met we were doing coaching, but we didn't call it coaching.

We would talk to the administration, said, we're gonna do, we're gonna do professional development, we're gonna do some training and we're gonna do follow-up support with the teachers one-on-one.

We didn't even call it coaching then.

It wasn't until several years that's, that was the term that developed and.

The reason that I bring it up that even though we may have been doing it for nearly 20 years, that's not enough time for administrators to have been coaches and done it.

Well.

There are lots of administrators who had been coaches.

Why?

Because they wanted to get into that professional ladder.

you know, you become a coach, then I'm gonna become an ap, I'm gonna become a dean, you know, whatever.

And so, the coaching was not done well, and I still don't think, you know, we've even scratched the surface of the potential from good coaching.

So administrators become coaches and they don't know the power.

They don't know how to do it well.

Then those people become district administrators and this process is continued.

That doesn't work well to improve it.

There is, you know, there are components of evaluation that we must have just because of teacher contracts and that sort of thing.

But I just don't think we have had a generation of successful coaches who were, who did a really good job and then moved up.

I know you have thoughts about everything.

Sandy, I could see your processing face on.

What do you think about, what do you think about my theory?

Sandra Brunet: I don't disagree with you.

I don't think that we have a generation of administrators who have been brought up as effective coaches or sometimes even effective evaluators.

But my question would be to you kind of to, to turn this question back on you is.

Then what do we need to get there?

Because we can't just say, oh, well we don't have it, so we, we can't get it.

What are the steps that we have to take, you know, as a system?

What system changes need to happen so that we get to a place where we can have effective coaching conversations?

Gene Tavernetti: I think you described it in the beginning, and that is that, and, I think there's gonna need to be outside consultants to coach coaches to coach administrators in in coaching.

But it's not gonna be a training.

It's, I mean, it's not gonna be a sit and get, as they say, and I'm not supposed to use cliches, but it's like you have to be side by side with me.

You have to be side by side with me.

Watch how this happens.

Let's work with a teacher who's kind of resistant.

And let's see how, you know, I, you've probably had the same experience I've had is that when you've had administrators in with you and you know, you're talking about a lesson that may not have gone well and they'll turn to you and say, this is so great.

I never knew what to say to that teacher.

I. You know, because it was not to improve.

They knew what they had something to say, but it wasn't helpful.

It was probably just the opposite.

So I think that's part of it.

We just haven't gotten there yet.

There, there aren't enough.

So I just think we they need outside consultants like us to go in and help 'em.

Sandra Brunet: That's what it is.

It's the tipping point, right?

We have not gotten anywhere near the tipping point.

Right now, outside organizations and consultants are pushing in piecemeal little by little to provide this coaching.

But I mean, unless we actually have that embedded in part of like.

The administrative program that, that principals go through to get their certification.

It's going to be a slow process, but it's, I think it's critical for us to, and improve the profession for our administrators, for our district level leaders to understand what adult learning and motivation theory looks like.

How do we bring adults along?

How do we get them excited about the work that they're doing and get them to want to grow and improve?

And to celebrate them.

Gene Tavernetti: Yeah, I don't it's gonna take a while and I think it goes back to, you know, people are, now, the Gen Zs are talking about the quality of the pre-service programs now.

You know, the credentialing programs that they didn't learn what they needed to learn.

And I go back to, you know, my administrative credentialing program you don't learn what you need to learn.

You learn it while you're doing it, but it needs that, that experience needs to be mediated.

You know, so that.

They could see patterns so that it's not just a series of random things.

That, that's why I love to be in coaching conversations after a lesson.

And then after that has happened, and then you talk to the coach or administrator and you say, you know what?

There's only one of like six things that are gonna happen during the lesson.

And guess what?

You know, you, it, you don't have to know.

You don't have to learn a thousand things to do this.

It's just a, you know, I talk about it as, as learning power phrases.

You know, if I'm working with a teacher and talk the whole period, I will say, wow, you worked too hard.

You know, you know, so, so, um.

Letting them know that the job is difficult, but it's not so big that you can't, that you can't learn it.

Okay.

Let's switch gears a little bit.

Okay.

We brought up some big issues.

Let's talk about technology because I know that you work.

We've had a lot of discussions about the use of technology and, you train folks in like blended learning.

You train folks in how to use technology effectively.

So what's going on with the how?

How do you see technology use in schools today?

Sandra Brunet: Well, I think Jean, you and I have had probably more conversations about this than anything that we've talked about.

We haven't had a whole lot of conversations about Covid, but we've talked a lot about technology and I think you and I in a lot of ways see really eye to eye on this.

And I think that post COVID-19.

With that influx of Esser funds, district and school level leaders had the opportunity to use technology as a way to fill learning gaps.

And there were a lot of companies that came in at that point with a variety of different curriculum resources and interventions that they believed were the bandaid or the magic bullet that we're gonna go ahead and.

Fix these problems that we may be experienced with learning gaps after the pandemic.

And I think that to no fault of their own, a lot of district level administrators and leaders were eager feeling like there was a timeline on that funding to quickly make decisions without maybe doing.

The level of kind of due diligence that they may have done in the past in the adoption of some of these different curriculum and programs.

And so what we are seeing now, by and large, is a little bit of the fallout of that, that there are spaces and places where you go into classrooms across the country where I go into the classrooms across the country and we see one-to-one computers, laptops open and.

Sometimes is little to no interaction between the educator and the classroom and the student behind the screen.

And so, you know what you and I have had a lot of conversations about is that thoughtful integration of technology or is it for technology?

Technology for technology's sake and just because a computer can do something, should it do something?

And so those are things that I'm constantly grappling with and feeling like as a system we.

We need a better way to like a better gatekeeper for technology.

Gene Tavernetti: We're really bringing a couple things together here.

I think, you know, one of them is just mentioned the.

Lack of expertise that administration may have with respect to coaching just because it's so new.

And now we have the same issue with regard to choosing a technology platform because it's so new.

You know, how do we determine what we're gonna buy?

Who's got the best sales pitch?

That's another thing.

Add it to the Gen Z. Population and you know, and, well, you know what I know what I'm gonna do today.

You know, I'm gonna open up and the the owner of this platform said, do this for 30 minutes.

Okay, well great.

That's 30 minutes and I'll see you in 30 minutes.

Kids.

Not to disparage Gen Z, but the idea is that the people who sell these platforms, their salespeople are the best.

Hey, you know, they could convince you.

And so, so we have that.

And I agree.

You know, like I said, we've talked about this a lot.

You know, one of the things that we haven't talked about, and I don't know what this, how to solve this, like, we were working in one district very recently and we saw, we walked classrooms in one school and they were using 13 different platforms throughout the school.

And so, said, you know, question was, well, how did that happen?

And said, well, there is one platform that has been approved for everybody that we want them to use.

And I think it was some sort of classroom management system.

You know, something.

And then the other, they, every teacher gets to choose one platform that they want to use.

And so, there's that if people could see your face it's not your processing face, it's your a gassed face.

The so there's that.

And then and let's say that they were okay in those, you know, that the platforms were really useful.

The problem that I see that we haven't talked about is that.

These platforms change so quickly so that they can keep up with the competition.

If there's one, you know, there's one little feature that, you know, my, my platform doesn't have, I'm gonna add it.

Oh, and then I'm gonna add one more.

So, so how do we, you know, how does an administration get ahold of that?

Because One more thing, one more thing as I'm filibustering here, is that you have a group of teachers on every campus.

Who are really the tech, the techo, you know, the techo geeks and you always know who they are, A geek.

I said that in a loving, loving way.

Not disparaging at all.

You always know who they are because they're the ones with all the stickers on their computer.

Right?

Okay, so, so how do we as an administration.

Keep up with all of these things and tell, and to go tell a teacher, you know what, Sandy, you can't use that one because it's not on our list.

And yet it could be the best one.

And I'm throwing this out to you.

'cause I had, I have no answer.

I don't know what to tell those people.

Sandra Brunet: Yeah, I mean.

It's a great question.

I think that there's a place and I think we've even talked about this, there's a place for a technology audit because I think the scary thing is that you talked about a walk that you did in 13 different platforms.

I'm not certain that the leader of that campus knew there were 13 different platforms

Gene Tavernetti: Not at all.

Sandra Brunet: all did that walk, right?

So, so there needs there and that's just, it's a beast.

And the thing is, with every.

Shift that happens with those technologies.

As you talked about the idea that these technologies are shifting so rapidly.

If there's not cohesiveness, then who do I go to if I adopted a specific technology and now it's shifted, but no one else on my campus is using it.

There's no training for it.

I mean there, there's just so many nuances of challenges that can happen.

And then the biggest one still to me being.

Human connection piece.

You know, we can go on days and days about the importance of connecting with students.

And this idea that for every minute they're in front of a screen, that's a minute that they're not connecting with you, their teacher and how important is it for that whole child to develop into the type of neighbors that we want, the type of citizens that we want.

If we.

Don't allow for the opportunity to connect.

Gene Tavernetti: I'm kind of sad here, Sandy, because there were a whole bunch of things we were gonna talk about that we didn't get to have to, we'll have to do this again.

So, but let me ask you, do you have any questions for me?

I.

Sandra Brunet: You know, I do.

I actually, I just, 'cause we've had the opportunity to chat a little bit here and there about a lot of different things.

And I guess I'm just wondering what might you for a brand new educational leader going into education?

Because I often have the opportunity to work with new assistant principals or new principals, and they are often the ones that are the most eager to really lean in and ask for advice and.

You know, I have like my little things that I say and I'm just curious, what advice would you give to a new assistant principal or principal who sees this, who sees the longevity in this, who wants to stick with this role for the remainder of their career and feels like it's the place for them to keep them constantly growing?

Gene Tavernetti: I'm gonna say this very.

Humbly because I did not know this when I was the administrator, and almost by definition that means I wasn't a very good one.

I wasn't effective.

But one of the things that I would tell piece of advice was to get very knowledgeable about instruction.

Yeah, because I think, you know, we both have a bias about explicit instruction because if you are very good at explicit instruction, now when you go to a training, now all of a sudden you have an influx of of second language learners.

Now you know how to adapt a lesson.

Because unless you know how to create a very effective lesson, you can't adapt it.

You can't say, oh, this is where we're gonna need to expand this.

We're going to, you know, we're going to have you know, more you know, more student talk, et cetera, et cetera.

Same thing with blended learning.

You know, how are you know, where, what are we gonna do differently?

Which begs the question, what were we doing in the first place?

I. So I think it is the baseline of everything that you're gonna do, you're gonna provide how are we gonna determine, what are we gonna focus on?

Well, you don't know how, what are you gonna focus on to improve unless you know what those elements are that will produce the improvements.

Because if you don't have this, if you don't have this grounding and I'm just gonna say in explicit instruction then what happens is you have a bunch of kids who aren't doing well.

Oh, well, you know what?

Let's develop an assessment to see who's gonna go to tier two.

Well, you know what?

How are we gonna, let's choose another curriculum.

You know, what are we, you know, and all of a sudden you get, you get messed up in all of these details where, you know what, let's go back to what it looks like for good instruction.

And then all the conversations will be driven off of that.

That's that, that, that's what I would tell 'em.

Now I'm saying that.

Again, humbly, because I did not know that.

And there are so many things that, you know, Sandy and the way that you work with folks and processes that you use to help, you know, to help districts, you know, create, you know, goals and visions and that sort of thing that I don't.

My deal is, I know, I think I know quite a bit about one thing and that's explicit instruction, but that's the baseline.

That, that's the baseline.

Get good at that and don't pretend that you know it.

I. Go sit in with your coaches, go sit in with your consultants and then, you know, go watch.

And the thing that I always say is that you don't have to be the best teacher as the administrator, but you should be a good coach.

I mean, you know who's a better shooter you know, step Curry or his coach, you know, but when Steph comes to the sideline, they always have something to say, or all the, you know, the Hall of Fame quarterbacks.

You don't have to be better.

But there are things that, that you can do to help.

And unless you are an expert, you will not have the confidence to do that.

You'll and that's where I was as a, you know, as an administrator, I'd watch a lesson.

I go, wow, I know something's off, but I can't help them.

And so if I could, if I just tell them what's wrong, I'm just a critic.

I have no help at all.

And being a critic is going to damage that relationship that, that's so important.

So, so, a long answer to say, become an expert in explicit instruction, I.

Sandra Brunet: And so I'm gonna follow up with a question, if you don't mind,

Gene Tavernetti: Oh sure.

Sandra Brunet: as you project forward in the next, just what we're seeing now in education and the trends that we anticipate coming.

What barriers or threats do you see?

To direct explicit instruction or a clean first teach or tier one as we move forward.

And what so like what are the obstacles and what potentially are the ways that we could overcome those?

Gene Tavernetti: Well, my wife hates when I use this word to describe explicit instruction or this phrase, and that is that it's not sexy at all, you know?

And so how do you compete?

How do you compete with the tech bros who have, you know, who have all of this venture capital to come in and sell you on this thing that is, you know, we're gonna differentiate for every kid, you know, the.

You know, the teacher's just gonna roam around and the, I think that's the biggest problem.

It is if you understand it.

If you understand it, the way that we understand it, there is so much passion in it because you know that this is the area.

And then so, so there's that, there's competition.

And I think the other thing is that as you know, you and I do, is that we have to share the evidence.

Nobody's convinced because there's research, but we have to let them know that, you know what this person said.

Was the research, you know, that was, you know, one classroom that they, that the publisher you know, designed this research.

And so those are some those are some things that teachers just need to know that it works.

And the only way they're gonna know that it works is that if you're able to get in there and work with them.

And they get excited.

The principal gets excited and now they go out.

Those teachers go out and say, man, you should work with Sandy because you can't believe they're how my kids were so much better.

Sandra Brunet: Awesome

Gene Tavernetti: Sandy I couldn't have had more fun for a Saturday.

thanks for being a part of this.

you wanted to talk about something you have coming up?

You wanna talk about that?

Sandra Brunet: Thank you for the opportunity.

I absolutely do.

So actually my organization Engaged to Learn is gonna be out in at the Riverside County Office of Education May 29th through the 30th, doing something.

That we call dig and a DIG workshop is really just a hub for innovation, collaboration, and coaching tools.

And we have the opportunity for your listeners to sign up kind of and do what we talked about, got hands-on practice coaching, get resources to implement.

And that's open to instructional coaches to teachers and principals, even to just district level admin.

And there's a lot that's included in that registration, including side-by-side support and coaching, possibly even by me, but certainly by one of our awesome consultants with engaged to learn.

So we'd love to see some of your readers out at our dig in Riverside County, and I think you're gonna attach that link to the podcast.

Gene Tavernetti: I will do that.

And is this something that you do throughout the country because, um, I do have some Southern California listeners but is it something that you do elsewhere as well?

Sandra Brunet: It absolutely is.

We have some other ones coming up, I know for sure in the Texas area, and so any of your listeners can go to engage to learn and look at the upcoming dig sessions that are happening and go to the one that is most geographically convenient for them.

Luckily, we work across the country.

We may have one here in Jacksonville, Florida.

There's quite a few coming up, so definitely jump on, engage the number two, learn our website and you can get more information.

Gene Tavernetti: Alright, great.

And we'll put that.

Website in our show notes.

Sandy, it was a joy.

Sandra Brunet: So fun.

Thank you Jean.

Gene Tavernetti: right.

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com, that's T E S S C G dot com, where you will also find information about ordering my books, Teach Fast, Focus Adaptable Structure Teaching, and Maximizing the Impact of Coaching Cycles.

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