Better Teaching: Only Stuff That Works

Gene Tavernetti: Welcome to Better Teaching, Only Stuff That Works, a podcast for teachers, instructional coaches, administrators, and anyone else who supports teachers in the classroom.

This show is a proud member of the BE Podcast Network shows that help you go beyond education.

Find all our shows@bepodcastnetwork.com.

I Am Gene Tavernetti the host for this podcast.

And my goal for this episode, like all episodes, is that you laugh at least once and that you leave with an actionable idea for better teaching.

A quick reminder, no cliches, no buzzwords.

Only stuff that works.

I am very excited about my guest today.

She is a teacher leader, not only in her home state of Wyoming, but in the United States as well with some of the work that she has done in the Goan Foundation.

my guest today is Laura Sta, who's a second grade teacher in Thermopolis, Wyoming.

She is letters, trained, which stands for language Essentials for teachers of reading.

And serves as a letter local certified facilitator.

She's a founding board member of the Reading League, Wyoming, and contributes to promoting high quality literacy instruction across the state.

She was selected as a Goan fellow for 2024 and to 2025.

In this role, she applies her literacy knowledge to her classroom and mentors and fellow educators in implementing evidence-based literacy practices.

Laura is driven by a passion for the science of learning and seeks out and applies the best instructional methods to teach children and to become great readers, writers and thinkers.

I think you're gonna like this one.

Laura, how are you?

I am so excited.

I've been looking forward to this all day.

Laura Stam: I am doing so well.

I am so honored to be on your podcast today.

Thank you so much.

I'm

excited.

Gene Tavernetti: I don't know how much of this you remember, but we met in real life in New York City.

I. It was, we were having breakfast and we just happened to be at the same table and we started to talk, you know, ha who are you, where are you from, et cetera.

And you know, you were very nice.

It was a very nice conversation.

And then a few days later you posted a picture of yourself.

A selfie with somebody from the conference, and you posted that you were in New York City and I didn't even, I didn't connect Stamp Stam, which is your Twitter handle with Laura.

So, it was very weird.

I felt I kinda had this weird thing like.

Wow.

I hope I was nice enough to this person because, you know, actually we've been following each other for quite a while, but the stamp stem kind of blew me away.

So is that your recollection?

Where

Laura Stam: Yes, I was.

I was totally fangirling.

I will admit, while I'm like, oh, I'm eating breakfast with Gene Tower Daddy.

Gene Tavernetti: Oh my

Laura Stam: So that was so fun though, just because a lot of the people I met on X, now I got to meet at that conference.

It was, that was a lot of fun meeting all those people.

Yeah.

Gene Tavernetti: No, it was.

And so was that your first research ed conference?

Laura Stam: it was, and I loved it.

Gene Tavernetti: Okay, so you'll be going to Denver I bet.

Laura Stam: Yep.

Yep.

As soon as that gets ready to sign up I'm headed over.

Gene Tavernetti: That's great.

It is fun to, it is fun to, to see everybody.

I just wanted to go into a little bit more into your bio because there are some things that you know, you are a Goan fellow.

I.

Laura Stam: Correct.

Gene Tavernetti: Can you talk a little bit about the GoYin Foundation, what it does, how you know what the process is to become a fellow?

Because there aren't that many selected.

Laura Stam: Right.

So they, they identify.

The best reading teachers, it's a literacy focus, and those fellows create videos and share them on social media to help, just to share what they're doing in their classroom with other teachers.

And I. So the application process you fill out just an application and then if you're selected, then you have to film a lesson that you teach.

And then they go through those that film and select just a few applicants.

I think this fellowship I think has 13 or 15 a. Fellows.

I think when I got selected, I think they said there were over 200 that applied.

I don't know how many have applied this time, but I think they're in the process right now of selecting the next cohort.

But yeah, so it's a little intimidating.

It's a, you just filming yourself and hoping you get picked, but it's really you, with the fellowship, you meet a lot of amazing teachers.

'cause we meet every month and we share stuff with each other.

We have meetings every Sunday or once a month on Sundays too.

And each of us present something specific we're doing in our classroom.

So we learn from each other.

And then the, and then what we're sharing online, we get to watch each other and it's K 12 and it's.

Reading and or general ed and special specialist educators that get to be part of it.

So you have this really nice mix of everything and so you can see what's happening in secondary and elementary and interventionists and special ed that we even have a science teacher, what, how she is incorporating literacy in her science group.

So it's, it's really amazing the people that you get to connect with and network with and then so much that you learn from all of them.

So,

Gene Tavernetti: So how many videos have you posted like.

Throughout the year, you have any

Laura Stam: um, I was looking, the YouTube channel is Science of Breeding Classroom and I was looking the other day and I think I have maybe 15 that I've done.

A lot too many.

But I, and now I've started posting just on my own, just other things.

'cause I've been doing some math stuff and I, so I've been wanting to share that.

So I just post that on my own.

So I actually really like doing it now, which is surprising 'cause that's not how I used to be at all.

Gene Tavernetti: well, it's not how you used to be.

And I think it's a testament to the, to your commitment to get better and to share.

You know, with folks, because a lot of people would not do what you have done, especially that many times, you know, because people can be, I don't know if you know this, people can be critical

Laura Stam: Yeah, no.

It hasn't happened yet.

I'm sure it will, but it hasn't hap people have been very kind.

But I just remember when I was first starting I started watching some videos.

It wasn't a lot, but there were people posting some videos of their classroom and their instruction and how much I got out of what I learned from that.

Just because you can read about how to do something.

You can hear about it on a podcast, but then to see how it's actually working in a classroom with children I mean, it's raw and it's real, but they're still able to do it.

I think that has a lot of power for teachers.

This is what a real teacher is doing in their real classroom.

And so when I first started doing it, I just thought of how helpful it was for me.

And these were not fancy videos, they're just.

On their phone, and they're not professional.

But it still gave me a lot to learn from.

And so I thought, I'm not gonna worry about it.

I'm just gonna film it, and I think it'll help other teachers 'cause it helped me so I

Gene Tavernetti: I'm sure it has.

I have heard other teachers comment not only about the content, but just thanking you for doing it, you know, for being vulnerable like that.

But that's not the only leadership things that you, duties that you've taken.

You've also, you're instrumental in getting the Reading League into Wyoming.

Laura Stam: Correct.

Now I'm not, I can't take all the credit, but I, yeah, so I'm one of the founding board members of the reading league and we started, I'm hoping I get the dates right 'cause we just had our one year anniversary in February, so we started last I. February, but we started like the June or July before that.

Anyway, we got it done super fast.

I think it was eight or nine months.

And because we were just, we wanted the reading link and we knew how important literacy was.

And so, all of us collectively together, we just pushed it through.

So that was a lot of fun.

We, 'cause all we're from all across the state and we just got together and.

And Claudia Ladd is our president.

She's kind of one that organized all of us and just found some really good, talented people to bring together.

And so, we've been able to do a virtual event almost every month.

All kinds of, yeah.

Really?

Yeah.

Really good webinars.

And then we have a conference in Wyoming, a literacy conference called Embracing Literacy.

And we we were able to.

Do a lot with embracing literacy, and we're doing that again this year in June.

So, we help support that a lot and so.

It's been really neat to connect with Wyoming teachers, especially in Wyoming.

'cause Wyoming is really rural and really spread out, and so finding your people is a little bit more difficult.

And so it, the Reading League, Wyoming is really helpful for bringing us all together and having that common language and really sharing what we are learning and doing and growing in literacy.

Gene Tavernetti: Well, you know, those, both of those things I think are kind of indicative of.

Why I wanted you to be on this podcast.

And I think

Laura Stam: well thank

Gene Tavernetti: theme is that just being a learner you know, even though you're recognized, it's like, I'm still, I wanna get better.

I want to get better.

And it was.

You posted something as stamp at on Twitter.

You responded to a podcast guest that I had on, and I and I think there res it was somebody who does coaching and instructional coaching, and then you made a comment, something like, boy, I wish I had a coach, or, I can't remember exactly what you said.

Laura Stam: Yeah, something like, I would love to have someone just look at my work and just really help critique and re help me refine what I'm doing.

That's what I wanted, so.

Gene Tavernetti: Because of everything that you've talked about so far.

I mean, you are exactly the type of teacher who I like to work with.

I mean, it's so rewarding for me.

And so I jumped on that right away.

I contacted you right away and said, how would you like to, how would you like to do this you know, to do some coaching?

And you said Yes.

Laura Stam: Yes, I did.

I said of course.

Gene Tavernetti: We started doing it.

Well, the of course and I kind of wanna talk about that a little bit because.

Not every teacher, not every experienced teacher is interested in that at all.

So I kind of wanna delve into a little bit about, about, you know, why you thought you wanted to do this, and then just kind of talk talk through the process and but be before we get started, I just wanna say it was the first time, and I told you this, it was the first time that I did this virtually

Laura Stam: Oh yeah.

Gene Tavernetti: I always do coaching cycles and I wasn't sure how it was going to work, but what made it easier is you have 50 videos out there.

And I was able to see you.

I was able to see you because I think that's something that I know that some teachers fear being coached because here's some person is going to say they're gonna help them get better, but they don't even know who they are.

So, so that was appreciated to have that resource.

And so, we decided on a date, you know, that we would get together and you had sent me a video and I, I remember, you know, I, you know, I, we got on the Zoom and I told you how excited I was you know, to do this.

Do you remember what you said?

Laura Stam: No.

What did I.

Gene Tavernetti: You said, well, I'm glad you're excited 'cause I was in tears.

Laura Stam: Well, like you said, I've done a lot to educate myself because just haven't had.

Those opportunities.

So I, those opportunities I've had to find myself.

And so I brought a lot of stuff in and I've tried a lot of stuff and I feel like I have this little modge pod of stuff going on, but just, even though I may, might be considered experience I, this is, this analogy came to me and a few summers ago, my father-in-law taught me how to paint a landscape.

And something really powerful I learned from that experience is almost like you paint a little bit and then he'd have me step back and look at the painting and oh, as a whole.

And then he'd say, okay, what needs to, what can we do now?

And then I go back in and I do something small.

It wasn't anything big, something small, and I'd step back and just that stepping back.

And so when you're a teacher in the middle of it.

hard to see what, it's hard to see that yourself.

It's hard to step back and look at that.

So I think.

I how, however experienced or unexperienced you are having another person stepping back and looking at that for you.

And my father-in-law did the same thing.

He would look at that for with me as well, and he would give me advice because he's an expert and a professional.

Look at that, gimme advice.

And it was just little things like, okay, go.

Why don't you fix, like, add some color here or add something here and that.

So that when the coaching thing for me, that's what it was, is I needed someone to come from the outside and look at the whole picture for me.

'cause I just needed to get some things refined.

And that's what you were able to do for me.

So yes, that's why I was in tears.

Gene Tavernetti: Had you had any had you ever had any coaching before, aside from what you had done, you know, watching videos that you had done yourself?

Laura Stam: No not officially.

I mean, I've had, you know, other teachers come observe and they give you feedback.

And so that's kind of just the extent of like official ober of real observing, but, or, but not coaching.

No.

So that's all brand new.

Gene Tavernetti: Okay, so let's kind of, if you could kind of talk about what your experience was, kind of, kind of walk through what we did and what you got out of it, what you took away, et cetera, et cetera.

I.

Laura Stam: Okay, so we met, it's watched my video, but what I was impressed with was all the questions you asked and.

I'm gonna mix a lot of things up, so hopefully that's okay.

But you asked a lot of questions and some of the questions that really impacted me were you had taken the time to look at the lesson.

'cause I'd done a core knowledge lesson and you went and looked up that lesson on what should be in there.

So you knew what it should look like.

You knew what that I had.

Adapted it.

And so you asked questions about that, like what was my thinking behind adapting that lesson?

I also thought it was interesting that you wanted more than just one video you wanted to have, just so you could get an idea of what it my teaching was like, not just in that moment.

You also, I'm trying other things.

I'm losing my train of thought, but just, I was just so impressed with how thorough you were and that, and I realized this isn't just a one, this isn't just a, oh, that looks great.

Maybe just tweak a few things.

This was something that you took very seriously and this was something that I just felt like that you.

Genuinely cared about helping me improve my practice.

And that's kind of an overall picture I got from that.

And so, yeah.

Gene Tavernetti: Well, I was just gonna say as, as much as I you know, wanted to improve your practice.

Or help you improve your practice?

It's about improving practice.

I mean, you're a nice person, but my goal is to help improve instruction.

It's always a benefit, you know, when you're helping somebody you know, who's nice.

But were there any surprises in the type of.

Feedback that you got, again, since you ha since you didn't have any experience in coaching.

Was there, were there any surprises in the types of things that we talked about?

I.

Laura Stam: Well, I think we agreed on, the thing I needed to work on was efficiency but I was surprised.

You just gave me really actionable things I could do in my classroom and you essentially gave me the fast framework that you talked about in your book.

But it was things that were really easy for me to.

Take and apply to my classroom.

In fact, I did it the next day.

I took exactly what you was, and I took a lesson and I adapted it right away because it was so concrete, and so.

Not simple.

I wouldn't call it simple, but something very e and those aren't the right words, but just something very practical that I could apply right away.

It wasn't ambiguous and it wasn't it wasn't generic.

It was specific, very specific feedback on this is what you need to do and this is how you do it.

And, but.

At the same time it was, it would work with any lesson that I taught.

So it wasn't like, okay, the next lesson you're teaching is this, and I'm gonna tell you how to do that.

You just gave me some really specific framework.

I like the word framework to work with on and how each one of those parts works.

I don't know if you want me to go into all those parts, but,

Gene Tavernetti: well, well, one, one of the things I just wanted to to reinforce or to make sure that folks listening, understand that was the importance of seeing all the videos of you and knowing what you did
because, what we're trying to do within that framework, take who you are and a lot of the structures that you already have and all the routines that you've done with your kids, and just move them around a little bit.

You know, instead of doing it here, do this here, you know, et cetera.

Because I think, you know, I think that's one of the things that teachers are concerned about, they're worried about when they're working with a coach, is like, somebody's gonna come in and say Everything you do is wrong.

That, and that's not true.

You know?

It's never true.

It's never true.

So, like I say, I just, I think that's what you said, but I just wanted to reinforce that.

Laura Stam: Oh yeah.

You were very kind and pointed out the good things I was doing.

Yes.

And you took everything I was doing, but just put it in.

Just help me refine it so I didn't feel like I was being attacked.

I didn't feel like I had to redo everything.

I was, I didn't have to feel like I had, like, I'd been doing everything wrong this whole time.

It was more like, this is, it was like that, like doing that painting.

It's like stepping back and like, okay, this looks good overall, but we need to do something here.

We need to add some color here.

We need to add a tree here.

That's what it felt like for being coached.

Gene Tavernetti: So, we're gonna start about, talk about some specific things.

So what are some specific things that after we were together that you started thinking about differently or.

However you wanna talk about it.

Laura Stam: okay.

So learning objective.

Let's talk about the learning objective.

And then I sent you a message about this.

'cause when I was reading your book, you have this part about teachers rolling their eyes about learning objectives.

And I am that teacher if I hear anything more about learning objectives and that they have to be posted in your room.

I mean, I've never, anyway, we all know why we don't like learning objectives and you have.

Changed my whole view on learning objectives.

'cause you gave me something that, so the learning objective you gave me was write three sentences describing the Oregon Trail.

And I've never written a learning objective that way before.

It's always, well it might be describe the Oregon Trail, but there's no, but we don't define how we're going to describe that.

You gave me something very specific so I knew exactly and my kids knew exactly what they were going to do.

They were going to write three sentences and then describing the Oregon trail.

Well then that simple.

And then what I loved is my favorite thing that I got out was the key ideas.

And you have like.

The model you gave me, there's several models that you have, and I looked at them in your book, they're really good.

But the one you had was like a tree.

So you had the, well, it was like a main idea and then three sub subsections.

And, but what I liked about that was I kind of introduced, I introduced that at the beginning and then as we were going through the lesson.

With my students, we knew that those were the main, the three parts we were going to be searching for as we went through this lesson.

And so they, what I really liked is they became partners in that lesson and they were looking for those things.

They knew what they were looking for, and I think that is so powerful for the students and the teacher because then the teacher knows, these are the three things I need to be.

Emphasizing, and I don't need to spend so maybe so much time on this, but I do.

'cause I wanna make sure these are the things that are important.

So, and then as I was giving the lesson, when we come to one of those three parts, we'd stop and we'd just write some things down as a class and put that down.

So that's all built for them.

And then the other thing is the learning objective is the same thing as your independent practice.

so when it came to independent practice, we had built that key idea chart together and they were, they could just take it and go without any, and then if I need to support a few students, but the majority of my class is ready to take those ideas.

'cause we'd found them and we'd talked about them and we'd written them down and it was exactly.

What we taught is exactly what they did in independent practice.

Those were, and there's a lot more to your framework and I've been, it's been really interesting to read as I go through your book to read all those parts.

So it'll be good to like put all those other parts in.

But those were the three those two parts were just like huge for me and huge for my lessons.

Gene Tavernetti: And I think, you know, going back to what you had expressed as your, the main thing that you wanted to work on, and that was, make the lessons move more quickly.

I think, you know, I think many times when you're working with a teacher, and that's the goal, they don't look at the structure.

It's like, what do I need to do faster?

What, well, if you look at the structure, then you know, we begin to you know, all of the science of learning stuff, we begin to understand what is the germane.

Cognitive load, what's superfluous, what's irrelevant.

And so it kind of, things kind of fall away and you're able to have that and you're able to have that focus.

And like you say, the kids now are with you.

Laura Stam: Right.

Gene Tavernetti: so I.

Laura Stam: I'm gonna take this from your book because.

What you said, what teachers need to be aware of is working memory and attention and when you're aware of those two things then, and then but that's great.

Right?

Working memory and attention.

Well, what does that look like?

So that's what I really appreciate is then you give us a framework in order to make that happen.

Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.

And it allows as a teacher to evaluate the lesson objective.

Wow.

Is that too much?

Is that gonna take too long?

So, so, and I think that's one of the things that, that when I'm working with teachers, I want them to take away is, you know, some ability, some criteria to make decisions about their lessons in the future.

It's not about the lesson that we do together, like you said, it's like, you know, how do we generalize this stuff because we need to, it's a lot of work, you know.

Laura Stam: Is a lot of work.

Gene Tavernetti: So if you have a structure, so if today we're doing Oregon Trail, well tomorrow we could do name whatever it is.

And it's the same lesson, you know, it's the same lesson.

And it just makes it easier for the kids than the kids know what to expect.

And then the other thing that you didn't talk about that made it easy to do this with you is that you had already taught.

The, what is it?

Expanded sentences,

Laura Stam: Yes.

Gene Tavernetti: So we're all, so again, we're embedding things that the kids already knew how to do.

So we're just putting new content in with a skill that they can continue to practice.

Laura Stam: That they're already familiar with.

Oh

Gene Tavernetti: which again is was the thing that, that was impressed me, you know, was one of the things that were most impressive about you as I listened to you talk and watch your videos, how you were able to synthesize ideas and put them together.

You know, you took science of reading, science of learning, all of, you know, writing revolution, all of these things.

And you made them, and you made them your own and you made them a coherent and you made 'em a coherent lesson.

Laura Stam: Yeah.

Yeah.

Something that was surprising though, so I, this is the fourth year teaching this content, so I'm very familiar with it.

I'm very familiar with writing revolution sentences or questioning and sentence stems, like, because I have those built in.

When I, when we're discussing the lesson, not just in writing and other things, but.

When I decided to do the FAST framework for a lesson, I was really surprised how cognitively overloading that was.

So the things that I just used to do automatically I had, I didn't script those parts because Before I could just do them without kind of having to go through a script.

But when I added that in, I wasn't able to do all those parts anymore and that was really surprising.

And so I kind of wanted to, I kind of thought that would be interesting to bring up for teachers who are trying something new, especially if you're changing the whole way you deliver a lesson that you might, you will want to script all the things that you are used to doing in there as well, because.

It was, it took all of my working memory, whatever you wanna call it, to focus on that.

And I couldn't just ad-lib what I normally ad-lib because I wasn't able to do that.

And that was really surprising, but really interesting.

And I thought that would be valuable information to know as a teacher.

Gene Tavernetti: Could you clarify a little bit what you mean by script?

Because that's another word that, you know, we see the eyes roll, you know, when we see a script.

But this is something that you created.

It wasn't a script that I gave you or anything.

You as a teacher, when you were going to teach this, realized something that made you create.

Laura Stam: Right, so I have.

So my lessons are normally in a slide deck that I've built, and in the slide deck I have questions built in and they're in the slide deck so that I don't have to think about them.

But I've done it so often that I don't really, I actually don't really have to look at the questions on the slide deck.

I kind of know what questions to ask as they come up, but.

I, because I changed the whole way I was delivering this lesson.

I didn't even use the slide deck I just used, I went straight from all my children have a, have their own reader.

So I just had a reader under the document cam and I followed the fast framework, but because I didn't have those questions that were already written and e whereas.

So even though I don't really need those questions anymore, 'cause I know them, because I had, was also changing my lesson structure.

I couldn't remember, I couldn't just in the moment come up with really good questions to ask them within the lesson like I normally do.

Am I don't know if I'm explaining that

Gene Tavernetti: You

Laura Stam: So the scripting part is I needed to write out the questions and the, and then that's in, so that was something you brought up in our second our second session was now I want you to give them when you have them do a turn and talk, give them sentence frames.

And I hadn't done that, that first lesson because.

That was part of it because I was having to focus on the change in my lesson structure, but it wasn't hard to add back in.

It was just something that I actually had to write and think about, which I didn't think I'd have to do because I was so used to doing it before.

So I think that's important to understand something that just because you're used to doing it before it, if you add something new and big like that, it won't be the, it won't be easy to do.

So you want to make sure that you have thought about that again and have that written out somewhere so you're not having to think about it in the moment, I guess is

Gene Tavernetti: Just as you know, we can give too much to kids during a lesson.

It's easy to overload a teacher during a coaching cycle.

And so I think what's gonna happen now is you have this structure and we had a couple of, you know, coaching.

Coaching sessions as you read the book, you'll see.

Okay.

Okay.

And then you'll be able to add that back.

But you said I'm glad I asked you to explain the scripting a little bit more because, and you even said it.

You're gonna, you're gonna hear those words in the book.

Okay.

And that is, in the moment, it's difficult to come up with better questions.

The questions that are in, and I don't mean to demean any.

Curriculum or anything, but they're very right there.

Questions.

They're, you know, for the kids.

So how did they get to how'd they get to California?

Oh, they were on the Oregon Trail to get to California.

What did they take to get to California?

That's not, you know, the kids are way more capable now.

Coming up with a question that they are capable of, where they have to think a little bit.

Those are harder to do on the spot.

So, anybody listening?

I don't want teachers to think, oh, now I have to script lessons.

No, you got, you're already using a PowerPoint.

Put those good questions right in there, then you won't forget.

You know, but you're exactly right.

That's the hard part.

You know, when you're doing it, like, what's a good question here?

Because if you don't, the default is the lower level questions and

Laura Stam: Right, right,

Gene Tavernetti: yeah.

Yeah.

Laura Stam: right.

Yes.

I was reading a Substack, SOL in the Wild, I think is what it's called.

He had this quote in here, and this just really reminded this, I think just really described the fast framework really well.

And it was, he asked the questions, what do my students truly need to learn and what do they need from me to change their long-term memories?

And I think that this framework, I think really helps ensure that you are not just adding a lot of fluff for the sake of fluff.

And that you, and we know that we need to be focused, but I think you just really help.

This framework really helps actually.

So it's a focus on the focus.

I'm not sorry, that's kind of a weird way to say that, but I just, when I

Gene Tavernetti: you're getting back to learning objectives, aren't you?

You're getting back.

Laura Stam: right.

Oh my gosh.

Yeah.

But yeah, and because, am I really, truly, it was what I'm teaching truly what my kids need to learn, and am I going to change their long-term memories in the way I'm presenting this?

And so it's.

That's hard.

It's easy to say we need to do that, and it's hard to see it in action.

And how does that, what, how do we really do that?

Gene Tavernetti: Well, you know what?

You said one thing.

I wanna unpack it a little bit.

You said that you changed.

We talked about your lesson the next day.

You went in and you changed it.

How did you say it?

You changed it.

You completely changed it.

But you know what?

If somebody watched you the first day and watched you the second day, I don't think they would think that they wouldn't see that many things overtly that were different.

But I think what was different is what was going on in your head.

Laura Stam: Right,

Gene Tavernetti: How you thought about it because you had, you know, you had a preview with the kids, ask them a question.

There was a learning objective.

You talk, I mean, you know, you went through it just like you had before, but there were some changes in your thinking, in your focus and like what you just talked about.

You know, what do I really want them to learn, but it doesn't look different and I wanted to, kind of emphasize, emphasize that, because I think when teachers hear, oh, they want me to do everything different, you know what it, you're gonna find out, you're gonna be able to take what you do.

And it's just moving a few things around, tweaking.

You know, a lot of times it's emphasizing one thing and deemphasizing something else, you know, that you like to do or moving it to a, to another lesson or something.

So, do you have any advice for teachers who are hesitant about being coached?

Laura Stam: Oh my goodness.

Well, you should embrace it

Gene Tavernetti: I.

Laura Stam: because.

It is intimidating, especially if you're not confident.

And I don't, and teachers aren't gonna say they're not confident, but we are all, we're all very, we're all very sensitive to being criticized.

I mean, that's just being human, I guess, too.

But, and so, but.

A really good coach isn't coming in to criticize you, and good teachers have a lot of good things they are doing, and I like that you clarified what you said, that it wasn't like I changed everything around.

It was just, it really.

It was just a few little refining things and it wasn't a lot of things, just a couple things.

It just made me aware of like, like putting some things into place, but it wasn't a big, it wasn't a big overhaul and I didn't feel like I was, that I was a bad teacher before.

I just felt like.

And so a teacher, you sh it's just nice to have someone come in and help you.

And it's just like any art, like all great artists always have feedback from other people.

Anyone who writes anything.

Always has someone looking over that for them.

And it's just like that.

It's not because you're not a good writer, it's because you are a good writer.

It's because you are a good teacher.

You are a good teacher, and so it's nice to have someone come in and show you what you are doing right, and just how you can be an even better teacher than you already are.

That's how I would look at it.

Gene Tavernetti: Yeah, we we met twice and I'm thinking what we didn't get, I. What we didn't have that always want to happen first is, some sort of training about what we're doing, and it gets back to your stepping back on your picture.

You know, it's like, what's the big thing that we're after here?

And we kind of had to piece that together the first time we met.

But if, you know, like, like what the big picture is.

And then we're gonna take a look at each of these components.

And then you see how they go together.

I think, you know, it, it helps make sense and I think that's something that's important.

You know, that I always tell coaches that when I train coaches, this needs to make sense.

You know, you're not in there to show how smart you are and you know, oh, you know how I would do it.

It's not about that.

It's about how are we gonna help these kids learn this content given all the things that this teacher does.

And to be able to utilize that teacher strengths.

Laura Stam: Oh yeah.

Yes, for sure.

Gene Tavernetti: so anything else that you wanna talk about with regards to the coaching experience?

Any big takeaways?

Generalizations on anything.

Laura Stam: I appreciated that it, there were just a few things the first time and then the second time, just a few more things.

So it wasn't a lot of stuff, but just a few, just do a few little tweaks here and a few little tweaks there.

They weren't, I felt, and but then, and things that were measurable, I think might be the best word.

Things that you could say what?

That you were easy to test if you did it or not, or did it right or not.

It wasn't, they weren't ambiguous changes, they were specific actionable changes that you could tell if you'd done it right or not.

The other thing too is I, you were very good about saying it's not gonna go well the first time, and that was true.

Like just.

Just my cognitive overload of applying that and figuring out, and then me forgetting to do other parts that I already did in my lessons.

But that, but at the same time, even though it felt like I agree, disagree that I, and I disagree because it still went right because.

It was a change that needed to happen, and the change was really good and I, it felt good to make that change and make my lesson go, start going in the right direction.

So even though it was rough, a rough start, it felt good to make that change.

And then the, and you, the kids, it was rough for my kids too, like they.

They didn't really know how to respond.

It was a little bit different from what they were used to, and so they were a little hesitant too and didn't quite get it that first lesson.

But by the second and the third lesson, they really got, I. They got really used to it.

And they, when we were, we'd fill out the chart.

They really liked that part and really being part of that.

And it, and so the first the first independent practice didn't go very well because they just weren't making that connection of what we were doing.

But by the third independent practice.

They realized what the key idea outline was and how that was helping them with their independent practice.

So even for your students, it was my students.

It was a little difficult, but it, even though the first lesson, like you said, isn't gonna go well, it still felt good to make that change.

And it was okay that it didn't go well.

Gene Tavernetti: yeah.

And I think an experienced coach, knows what to expect in the first time.

You know?

So, so it's like, yeah, it didn't go great, but you know what, this is exactly the progression and kind of like, like, and it's not gonna take long, like you said, by the third time everybody's got it.

And you never have to talk about it again.

They're with you.

You're embedding your, your expanded sentences, you're expending your writing revolution stuff.

I mean, you just, you know, everything is there.

So, well, it was really fun working with you, Laura.

I gotta say, and I can't wait to have more conversations with you as you go through the book.

Laura Stam: Oh yeah.

Gene Tavernetti: Because I, I think you'll, I think you'll see a lot of reinforcement, a lot of the questions that probably would've been answered during a training.

You'll get to see those.

So here I have, I've been grilling you for 45 minutes.

You have any questions for me?

I.

Laura Stam: Okay.

So I am totally stealing this question from Craig Martin, but I really like this question and I'm gonna tweak it a little bit because I know that you're a coach.

But you used to teach, correct?

Is that correct?

Yeah.

So I wanna know what your favorite failure was from when you were a teacher.

And the reason I ask is 'cause I think it's a relief for teachers to know that experts, the experts, were not always experts.

So that's why I wanna ask that question.

Gene Tavernetti: Well, you know, I appreciate you asking that, and I understand why you asked that, but I didn't know this at all, so.

So a PE teacher, I was a cliche.

I wanted to coach.

I didn't wanna teach.

I wanted to be a coach.

Laura Stam: okay.

Gene Tavernetti: The irony was that I was a really good teacher.

That was my strength as a coach.

Teaching, teaching teaching techniques, putting things together you know, stacking our, things that we have learned so that we could perform.

But I didn't know how to do that in the classroom.

And I'm just gonna say The whole classroom experience is like PTSD.

Okay.

I can't think of anything that I would say, man, I was really good at this, but you know what I knew it, but I didn't know how to do it.

But I, let me tell you as a coach, okay?

I can tell you what failures as a coach, and that is I have several guidelines, several rules.

Okay.

That that are important to follow.

One of them we talked about at the beginning of this when we were talking about the coaching, was to be sure that I have seen the teacher teach.

I've been in the classroom, I know, you know, how just kind of a little bit how they operate as a teacher.

When I have broken that rule, I. And tried to give advice before seeing that teacher.

All these wonderful things that you said about the experience, you know, that never had a chance to occur because there was a wall I.

You know, up right away.

You don't know me.

You know, how dare you tell me how to do this.

And I didn't even know if what I was saying was right.

You know, in retrospect because I didn't do my preparation, I. So it's, you know, how is that analogous to teaching?

There are some things, you got a script, you know, there, there are some non-negotiables that if you don't do that, you're gonna get to the end of the lesson and go darn it.

You know, I knew I needed to do that, but I thought I could get away with it.

So I think it's that, and I've had.

Times, again, analogous situations like being too cute.

And I think elementary teachers if we're not thinking about cognitive load, it's real easy to get cute, you know, oh, let me read you this story.

You know, the, it's gonna be a preview of something, but the kids get so excited about the story, it's very difficult to bring them back to, to actually do the lesson.

I remember, one time I worked with a really good teacher and, um, lots of good things, you know, and there was just a couple small things to talk about.

And so we talked about all the things that had gone well, talked about how we thought about it and, you know, do you always do this, yada, yada, yada.

And then as a joke, I said, well, you know what?

They're gonna take my test license away if I don't have, you know, give you one idea about how to get better.

I thought that was funny.

I thought it was cute, and the test license was cute because I am tes.

I, you know, there's no, nobody's gonna fire me, but you know what the te, you know what that teacher did?

Went straight to the principal and told the principal, all this guy is doing is looking for what's wrong.

Laura Stam: Oh.

Gene Tavernetti: so I learned.

Not to be too cute.

You know, I learned to have my script, you know, like the questions that I asked you at the end of the lesson it's the same questions I ask every time I. Because I, I know it works.

And kind of the same thing.

You're gonna have those concept maps and you're gonna use them all the time.

'cause you know, they know they work.

So, how would I bottom line that with regard to failures is know what works.

Don't get too cute.

And if something doesn't work, then you know what to go back to.

But I don't, you know, I've been around a long time, Laura.

I mean, you know, like, I've just been doing coaching for over 20 years, you know, so, so when somebody asks me, oh, when did you teach?

Geez, you know.

Last century, you know, sometimes, and so, it's almost not even relevant anymore because because I've had a chance to see, I've had a chance to work with good teachers like you and to see so many good things.

That's what I'm sharing.

I'm not sharing what I did because I'm not nearly as good as most of the teachers that, that I work with now.

Laura Stam: Oh, nice.

No, that's really valuable.

That's really valuable.

Just in, yeah.

Well, and there is a lot of correlation between coaching and teaching, and I think.

That's really valuable and I think, you know, like what you said about being cute and you did kind of apply that to a teacher.

Yeah.

Sometimes wanna be cute, but it's not really helpful and so we just need to, yeah, that's great.

Thank you.

Gene Tavernetti: To get 'em to focus.

Laura Stam: Yeah.

Gene Tavernetti: Laura, it has been wonderful.

And I didn't call you Sarah one time

Laura Stam: Oh good.

Yeah.

Good job.

Gene Tavernetti: and yeah, it's been great.

Let's stay in touch and

Laura Stam: Absolutely.

Yeah.

Thank you for

Gene Tavernetti: If you're enjoying these podcasts, tell a friend.

Also, please leave a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.

You can follow me on BlueSky at gTabernetti, on Twitter, x at gTabernetti, and you can learn more about me and the work I do at my website, BlueSky.

Tesscg.

com, that's T E S S C G dot com, where you will also find information about ordering my books, Teach Fast, Focus Adaptable Structure Teaching, and Maximizing the Impact of Coaching Cycles.