Better Teaching: Only Stuff That Works

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Welcome to Better Teaching, Only Stuff That Works, a podcast for teachers, instructional coaches, administrators, and anyone else who supports teachers in the classroom. I'm Gene Tavernetti, your host for this podcast, and my goal for this episode, like all episodes, is that you laugh at least once. And that you leave with an actionable idea for better teaching.

A quick reminder, we will only be sharing stuff that works, no cliches, no buzzwords. My guest today, I am very happy to have with me is Dr. Anna Stocke. Anna holds a PhD in math and is a math professor in the Department of Mathematics and Statistics at the University of Winnipeg. In her role as a university professor, she has won several awards for her teaching excellence, including a 3M Teaching Award in Canada, which is the [00:01:00] highest award for post secondary teaching and educational leadership.

Anna is a strong math education advocate and is active in community outreach for advancing math education. She also co founded and is president of a non profit organization which delivers after school math classes. And her voice may be familiar to many of you, she hosts the popular math education podcast Chalk Talk.

Welcome, Anna.

Well, thank you for having me. Glad to be here.

Boy, my, my pleasure. You know, one place I'd like to start a little bit because I think it's going to lay some context for a lot of what we're going to be talking about is, could you talk about your, your non profit and after school? program that you do.

Yeah, sure. So, founded that about I guess 10 or 11 years ago. So we mostly do grades four or five and six, though we have done higher grades certain years. And I hire university students. Students [00:02:00] to teach the classes. I designed all the lessons myself. This is just outreach that I do in the community.

And my husband also helped design some of the lessons. He's also a math professor and so yeah, we still run that. It's, it's non-profit. It's offered at low. Cost to parents, and we give bursaries as well. So some kids can come and, and the parents don't have to pay very much at all. Basically, you know, we just wanted to have something in the community for people that would help teach basic skills.

And some of the things that are missing in the, in the classrooms that we were finding.

So, some of the basic skills that you think they were missing. I know one of them that you, you talk about it very much on your show. In fact, you just had Dr. Ponce on for two hours talking about math facts. What is that? What is the deal? How did that become controversial that [00:03:00] students should learn their math facts?

Well, I wish I had a good answer to that question, and by the way Brian Poncy and I actually talked for two and a half hours, so I edited it down to two, two hours, which I published as two episodes, which are really quite popular so, I mean, it's interesting because it was, it was a surprise to me when I found out that Some people think that it's not important for kids to memorize math facts.

I think it kind of goes back to a lot of people sort of think that, you know, math shouldn't be all about memorization you know, people disparage things like this as drill and kill, etc. Of course it doesn't make sense because it's important to actually have those basic skills and those basic facts in long term memory so that you can easily retrieve them when you're trying to do more complex problems.

But yeah, I mean, it's, it's interesting and, and it's been going on for quite a while. To be [00:04:00] honest.

Was that one of the reasons that you wanted to start your after school program? Is that one of the things you saw that was missing?

Well, if you want to know the whole story behind that, so it was when my kids were in school and or when they were in elementary school, and we noticed that some of this was going on. It wasn't just times tables. It was kids also weren't learning standard algorithms in Manitoba. They were getting very convoluted methods for doing basic arithmetic.

The kids were just confused, and parents would always talk to us about About it because we're mathematicians, and so we actually started an after school club in our home, so my daughter and her friends would come over and we'd do math and, you know, they'd have lots of fun and we'd send them home with homework and they actually did it and, and that sort of thing, but you know, we felt bad because there were just so many kids that were getting left behind and, you know, we could just help our own kids, right?

But, you know, We felt [00:05:00] that we should do more than that, so we just talked to some other math professors in, in the city, and we just founded a non profit organization to do that.

So, You did that and obviously it's successful because you're doing it, been doing it for over a decade. Was there a response from the schools? Any pushback? Anybody saying, you know, gosh, we don't teach it that way? Or were they thankful you did it? Or did they even know you were doing it?

Yeah, that's a good question. I wouldn't say there was pushback, no. I mean, I don't think I've ever gotten any pushback when it comes to Archimedes math schools. I get lots of pushback about my advocacy, my public advocacy, but not about Archimedes math schools. In fact, the principal at our daughter's school, even, Kind of promoted it.

So yeah, so it's kind of funny. But yeah, no, that actually hasn't been controversial and and students attend. And [00:06:00] usually we have a pretty long waiting list even. And it's actually really good for the students we hired to teach the classes too. A lot of them are in the education program and they're becoming teachers.

So they learn a lot from it. They get experience working with kids and learning how to teach math. Properly and sort of more traditional way.

So, I know that you're in the department of math, math and statistics, and I know that there's a separate department of education, so you have, you just mentioned that you have students working for you who are becoming teachers who are obviously in the Department of Education. Is there any sort of ever coordination talking back and forth between the math department and the people who are preparing math teachers?

Oh, wow. You're asking such tough questions already. Okay. So, so that's a good question. And, and I'm going to be kind of careful about how I answer that. So it's interesting that you ask this because There [00:07:00] are two separate departments. And as you mentioned, I'm a mathematician. I'm not an education researcher at all.

I'm a math researcher. I have no plans to ever do education research. And that's a good thing because for my advocacy, I have nothing to lose and nothing to gain, right? I'm a full professor.

Right.

I don't do education research, so I have nothing to promote here, right, so I can kind of just tell it like it is, which I do.

Now, we have developed courses in our university. We have two courses for elementary school teachers, so K 8 teachers. They're specifically for K 8 teachers, which kind of go deep into the K 8 material. We did. Communicate a little bit with the faculty of education on that. That's true. Definitely. And actually, most of the students that I teach that are in my math classes that I teach are actually becoming high school [00:08:00] teachers.

So they're getting math degrees to become high school teachers, but we do have these two courses, which are elementary K to eight teachers. But generally I would say just there tends to be a bit of a difference of opinion in how the education faculty thinks that teachers should be taught how to teach and how a mathematician might think that teachers should be taught how to teach.

And so that can be kind of complicated that just sort of navigating that. Now having said that. I do go to one of the education classes every year, and I talk to those students about how I think math should be taught. And so I really appreciate that, that relationship with that professor in the Faculty of Education that has me to his classes.

I'd certainly like to speak to more students about it. But truth be told we're not, math, the math department isn't charged with teaching teachers how to teach. We're [00:09:00] supposed to teach the content. So that's kind of how it works.

And that, and, and I understand that, and it seems like as I talk to more and more people in education there are just so many silos like this, that people have no idea what's going on with, with something else. And, and I kind of liken it to going to the doctor. And you go to your, your general practitioner, and they hook you up with a specialist, and then you have another issue, and you've got all of these groups of doctors that never talk to each other, that don't know the whole story.

And, and, and I, and I worry, and I worry about that, that, that. I'm gonna say kids, they're all, you know, as they young teachers, they just don't have the whole story on, on a lot of things. And you mentioned your, your math advocacy. One of the things that your name becomes associated with, and I know that communicated, I've communicated with you about this a little bit, [00:10:00] is the science of math.

Science of Learning. And I have, my issues, my, my issues, my job in education is to work with teachers to help them change their practices to be more effective. And I understand, I don't care whether, what term is used, but what I worry about is the fact that when there is a term like science of learning or science of math, all of a sudden the teachers get turned off because for their whole career somebody has told them this is based on research.

This is, you know, and now we, now we have something else. So I guess my question after my Get off my soapbox a little bit here, is, is the science of learning, the science of math, helping to advance, or are we creating, we still have these, these silos, these divisions with folks?[00:11:00]

Okay. So sure. So, so first of all, I'd sort of say that you kind of hit the crux of the issue there in that absolutely. And, and when I talk to reporters and various people, they'll say, well, you can find research and education that supports almost anything. And that's precisely the problem. Okay. So there is just let's put it this way.

So, in education research, the standards are quite low, and, and I'm being very blunt here, and I know I'm going to ruffle some feathers with these statements, but it's true. And, and this is a big problem. Because in fact, there is some research that would be considered more rigorous, but then there's other research which is more of this kind of flavor.

So someone has an ideology, they want to prove it's true, so that they have research to say it's true, and so they conduct some study, which is just an absolutely horrible study, right? You know, [00:12:00] there's likely no control group they might just be interviewing students, and it's, Bias towards the program that they're trying to promote and then they can publish a paper on it and then they can go around and sell a product and say they've got research to back up the product and that's actually the whole issue, right?

So that's how I see the science of math as being really helpful in that it's going to sort of help push forward research that actually is rigorous, because there is some research that actually. is well set up, that's well designed, and let's look at that research, and if we could sort of get to a point where we can tell the good research from the bad research, that would be a really useful thing in education.

I mean, I saw this in, in my own kids school, they were going around giving these articles that had been published in education journals, believe it or not, that were saying that standard algorithms are [00:13:00] harmful. And that's just nonsense, right? So I sort of see the movement as being a way of getting through all this, right?

For moving actual high quality research forward and, and sort of maybe If we could kind of help teachers to determine what high quality research looks like. So I think it actually is a good thing. I mean, I know you don't like the, I know you don't like the, the phrase. I, the phrase science of math, I didn't come up with that phrase, right?

And, and the phrase itself doesn't make sense. Science of math. That's my issue with it. It's, but, but I think, you know, these are good people, like strong researchers doing really good work and it's, it's a movement, right? And it has to have a name. So that's the name. Would it matter if it had a different name?

No, it wouldn't. There were a lot of people feel threatened, [00:14:00] you know, and so there's going to be pushback.

You know, I've been training teachers for, gosh, 20 years. And. I never say maybe one time during the entire day I will share some research. And the reason that I don't do that is because I don't have to, because I've been in enough classrooms for, to describe what's going on in their classrooms and what's not working, and they're just shaking their heads, and they're happy to hear something that might work.

Well, and it comes from that body of research, you know, but. I don't say this is the research, because then they convince themselves. Because one of the things that you just said that I absolutely agree with is that, is that once you have this science of whatever, then you have leaders in it. And then you have people who don't know what it's about, but it truly, they act [00:15:00] cult like.

It's, it's like, well, well, Anna said it. And I said it without even thinking about it without being any, you know, no discernment at all. So at any rate again, my concern, my, my goal is always to have to eliminate as many barriers. Many reasons not to do something as I, as I can. And and, and I just think that they are, the, the longer they've been in the profession, the longer that they have heard, oh, this is, this is based on research.

And, and I have to tell you, when I started reading education research And I find out that the that the group, the experimental group was a group of graduate students pre med. I'm done. I, you know, I, that doesn't, that's not going to help me with my second graders. So I, I, I agree with you.

There's a lot of research that That's good. And some that that bothers me a little bit. So you, let me go back to something else that you said. You talked about [00:16:00] K 8, that, that you have a chance to work with some K 8 folks. There has been some discussion about. You know, that all math, regardless of the grade level, should be taught by math specialists.

What's your thought about that?

Okay. I have a lot of thoughts about that. So actually, when I started out in math, education, advocacy, it started at this, Because of, of this, because we had a lot of students coming in to the education program and here in Manitoba at that time, they had to take one math course. Okay. And one math course from the math department.

And what we found is that a lot of the students had severe difficulties with math. So I'm talking not being able to add fractions. Not being able to figure out a percent, say, very basic math, and also [00:17:00] a lot of math anxiety. And, and this was very concerning to me, right, because in Manitoba, when you're certified as a K 8 teacher, and you're a K 8 teacher, you teach all subjects, including math.

And so, At that time, I kind of thought that math specialists were the answer. And over the years, I've changed my mind on it for a couple of reasons. One is, well, what is a math specialist? Okay, because what I've found oftentimes, like the math consultants in the ministry or in various levels, they often don't even know much math, but they Certainly belong to some, you know, they have, they'll have some ideology about how math should be taught, because that seems to be how you get in that position.

Okay. And so what would the math specialist look like? Right? Like, would they know, would they know the math? Would they know a lot about teaching math? So [00:18:00] I don't know. But I do think, you know, I do think that there's, that we need to give teachers good resources and I think that's really the problem.

So, what I see going on a lot is we have teachers going into schools, and I've tried to work hard on this. Now our, our teachers here in K 8 have to take two math courses, so that's, That's, that's definitely an improvement. But I think a lot of times we have teachers going into schools who maybe aren't that strong in math themselves, but then they also have really bad resources to work with, where the math is all convoluted, it's not explained well, and that sort of thing.

So I think Sort of the answer is to work on providing good resources for teachers.

You know, and I've been talking to a few people lately and people who have developed resources for, for teachers. And to me, the [00:19:00] most powerful thing about them, aside from their clarity, and just the structure, was how much the math teachers could learn. It would teach them how, how to do it. I remember one, one teacher that I was working with in my, in my workshop.

She didn't talk all day. And I'm thinking, you know, I guess, you know, this didn't mean much to her. And at the end of the day, she came up to me. She goes, Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I had no idea how I was going to teach math. I had, I hadn't, I had no idea. And the resources were not going to help her.

We're not going to help her. So I, you know, I think if they have the resources, then the teachers can you You know, learn themselves, but without it you know, you look at those resources and you wonder, what are they asking? You know, as an adult, I'm sitting in the class saying, what are they asking?

What would be the correct answer? So, so, so good materials, good resources. You know, one of the things that, that people talk about [00:20:00] is that, well, if you're teaching math in a primary, Primary grades. You should at least know the math three grades higher or algebra. What do you think about that?

Okay, if you want to know what I, my opinion on this is, so here's sort of what I see as the ideal. I think that an elementary school teacher Should have ideally grade 12 precalculus, all right, from high school, plus some courses at the university that dive into problem solving and really get into the why behind the, the math that they're going to teach now, whether that's going to happen or not.

I mean, it could be quite unrealistic. I mean, I, I don't think that it's, it's really, you know, You know, like I don't think it's an unreasonable ask, but it's not usually the way, the way it is. But certainly you need to know the math beyond [00:21:00] what you're teaching, so that A, what you're teaching is automatic to you, and B, you know what you're preparing students for.

How about, how about going backwards? Let's say you are, let's say you're a high school teacher. What do you need to know about what happened in the prior grades? Do you need to know that or you just hope that they're ready for you?

Well, how could you not know it if you're teaching high school, right? So if you're teaching high school, you must clearly know the math that comes before that, right?

Well, you know the math. I don't, I don't know if it's knowing the math, but knowing, let me give you, let me give you a story. So I'm working with a middle school math team, and we have the 8th grade teachers. And so, at that time in California, everybody was taking algebra in 8th grade. So, I had the 8th grade teachers, the algebra teachers, choose a standard, that the whole group was going to work on.[00:22:00]

So they chose an algebra standard. And then with the seventh grade team, they decided what would be the prerequisite standard to be able to do that in seventh grade that would prepare them to do the eighth grade standard and down to sixth grade. So, so the sixth grade team worked on what the 7th grade would need, 7th grade, the 8th grade.

And so this, does that make sense, what, what I'm saying? So they're, okay, so they're all working on a, on a, on a similar standard, but in prior grade levels. So the 6th grade team, they didn't have to teach the lesson, but they got up to discuss how they would teach this particular standard. The algebra teachers, I thought they were going to be sick to their stomachs because they could not believe what was being taught in sixth, and now they realize this is why our kids are not prepared, because they had never done that articulation [00:23:00] before.

And so, it makes me think how important the articulation is, and how, not only what the content is, but how it's being taught so that, that when they get to, when they get to the prior, or the subsequent grades, they're ready for it.

Yeah, so I see it as going the other way. So I think that the higher grades need to talk to the lower grades. I mean, it's a two way street, right? But I think that it's important that if you, because I think a lot of times people don't realize what it is that students need to know at the higher grade and what the important topics are.

So I think it's important to communicate that. So, The example that I would give is at the university level, and sometimes we'll have high school teachers ask us what is in, what subjects are really important for them to concentrate on for those students to know so that they can do well in calculus, and what they think is [00:24:00] important isn't always what we actually need the students to know, right?

So, those, that kind of communication is really important.

Yeah, and again, it's another one of those things that, that doesn't happen for, for a variety of reasons. I have a theory I want to share with you. New topic, new topic, Anna. Here's it. Here's it. Here's it. Here's my theory and It kind of goes back to math facts. All right, teachers are told, teachers are told that, you know, Everybody, there's lots of ways to solve problems.

There's lots, there's lots of ways to solve problems. You And I agree with that. And, but six times seven is, is not a math problem. So, so we're, we're using problem for a, you know, a six times seven versus a problem where we're, we're asking for some sort [00:25:00] of application or something. And so I think the, just the vernacular is confusing because It's okay if they, well just let 'em write out the sevens because that's how they do it.

Everybody's different.

So, there are lots of ways to do Any math problem, really, right? There's lots of ways to figure out six times seven, but guess what? Some ways are better than others, all right? So the, the big, the big problem is, and, and I know this argument, I, I hear this all the time, right? I think, I don't know why, I guess people are worried that students think that there's only one way to do things.

I mean, why is everybody so worried about this, right? If you think that students think that, just tell them that there's not only one way to do things, and, and that's true. That's true. right? But usually one way is better. And why would you do it the worst way? Like, who would do that? That makes no sense, right?

Like, why wouldn't you choose the best way to do something? And in fact, what we should be teaching students is to look for the [00:26:00] most efficient ways to do things. That's what we do in math. You know, like, we don't sit around trying to think of many ways to do six times seven, right? I mean, you just want to eventually just know what it is and do harder problems, right?

And so that's why I think that the teachers are confused that, you know, we don't have any other term other than six times seven is a math problem. I'm gonna give you seven multiplication problems. And you're right. I think you know, just, hey, you just know your facts. You memorize your facts, and you do these.

You do these practice, and I can't even think of another term to use problems, but you're right. Why would you do something differently than the most effective, efficient way? And why would you teach them to do something different? I don't know. I'm,

Well, there's another thing, there's another thing, Jean, is that people are, have some idea of what conceptual understanding means. So that's a, that's a big [00:27:00] thing in, in math education, right? So we want kids to understand math and I want kids to understand math too. I usually explain why things are true.

Everything in math does have a reason behind it. And students do need to. I don't know that, but I think that there's some confusion about what understanding means, and I think a lot of times people seem to think that understanding something means that you can do it in many different ways. Okay, so I think there's some confusion about what understanding means.

Yes. Yeah. I, I, I don't know what else to say. I think there's a lot of confusion. That's, that's one of them. And I've talked to adults a little, little bit of a little bit of a new topic. I've talked to adults who have gone to trainings where they've had a a person come in, a consultant come in and give this open ended problem.[00:28:00]

And they get in their groups. And they think about it and they solve it and they just say, wow, you know what? I, I wish, I wish I had been taught like this. I mean, you, you know, you know, my ideas were accepted. My ideas were valued. And boy I, I just, I just don't know. I don't think an adult can do that because they bring in so much prior knowledge.

Okay, so I hear this argument a lot, all right? So this is sort of, this is a huge issue, so it's an emotional argument, and it's also an illogical argument, and it's coming from an adult who has already experienced many years of, of math education, and it's also a very appealing argument, and I think Professional Development Providers use, they depend on this argument to sell their product in a lot of cases, all right?

So, and, and actually sometimes it's true, right? So, if I said, I [00:29:00] wish that my teachers had done a better job, of giving, of spacing out practice. So giving spaced practice because I just learned, you know, that now I understand how the memory works, how working memory and long term memory works. Well, that's true, right?

It would have been better if my teachers had given more spaced practice, but not because of how, you know, It made me feel right because it's better to give space practice. Okay, so and you know what? It's not your place I'm sorry, but it is not your place to decide based on your own feelings how You know hundreds and thousands of children should be taught No, it is absolutely not.

It's not about what makes an adult feel good, right? It's about using teaching methods that have a higher probability of working for the largest number of students. That's the bottom line. So I think a lot of what's [00:30:00] going on is, is the curse of knowledge. Right? So we forget, we forget how hard it is for someone to learn something when they've never seen it before.

We forget how hard it would be to work with a problem like that when we don't have the background skills. Right? So I think always we have to keep in mind the instructional hierarchy, which is what I've been talking about recently since, since my episode with Brian Ponte. You know, that you have to progress.

You have to work your way up to difficult problems. You know, a student who doesn't have the background knowledge finds those open ended problems really difficult. You know, how can they do them? And then there will be other kids in the classroom. In the group that have prior knowledge for whatever reason and because maybe their parents taught them or they go to after school classes or they just pick things up really quickly and those kids excel in, in those situations.

It just widens gaps. So [00:31:00] I think that actually this argument bothers me a lot. I, I, I think it's I, I actually think it's quite unacceptable, I will say, to be making, making decisions and, and promoting certain programs based on, like, appealing to, with this emotional appeal, you know, that, well, this is what I wish I'd done this.

I mean, who cares, right? It's about, it's about what, what works best for the kids.

Well, I think a tangential argument to the person who says, well, I love this and, you know, we should, we should be doing this, is the idea that Every single lesson that we have has, is relevant. It has some real world relevance. And I, I, I don't think so. You know, I, you know, you're just learning things.

I know I was challenged once. I do, when I do a training, I do a sample lesson. And that was, [00:32:00] that was the question from these math teachers. So, so, so what? So now, now they know this. I said, well, what if you went to, what if you took a shop class? And the teacher at the beginning of that shop class at the beginning of the year would hold up a birdhouse.

They say, we're going to build this. This is going to be great. And you know what, you know what they do the next day? They saw a piece of scrap wood, and then the next day, they get a different type of saw, and they saw it at a different angle. So, you have to, not everything is relevant in the real world. And one story that I'll, that I'll share, that I always laugh at every time fourth grade teachers are teaching ARIA.

And they'll say, Oh, you know, I have to tell them why it's important. And the most common story is, you know, someday, you're going to have a house, and you're going to buy a rug, and you're going to need to know the square footage. And I just laugh and I tell them, you know what, there's a guy for that. [00:33:00] And besides, I have never.

In all the carpet that we have purchased, it's never been close. Our measurements have never been close. So, that just, that, I don't know how relevant buying a house is to a nine year old.

Yeah. Okay. So, I mean, this, this happens a lot in math, by the way, people expect that you're supposed to be saying, you know, where's the real world application. So the first thing I'm going to say about this is the best thing I think a teacher can do to get their children or to get their students to like math is be passionate about math, passionate about math yourself.

And. Teach it well, right? Students want to do things that they feel they're successful at, right? So help the students be successful and that's going to help them to like math and be passionate about it yourself. If you're always chasing the [00:34:00] applications, this is just a losing battle. Right. If you're, if you, if you set it up so that your kids are always asking you, what's the application of this?

What's the application of this? This is gonna be exhausting and it's gonna be really hard to do. I mean, not that it's, you know, it should be easy enough to give applications of basic arithmetic, fractions and, and that sort of thing. But I actually don't think kids care about it that much. I don't think my students care about it that much.

So, I mean, I've been teaching at the university for, for 20 years. All right. I have never, I don't think, and I've, I've seen, you know, many student evaluations from my own classes, from other people's classes. I've evaluated people's teaching from other universities. I don't think I have ever seen a student write down that they We're upset because there weren't enough applications.

As a matter of fact, the students tend not to like the applications. That's, that's, that's the truth. Okay, especially students who struggle [00:35:00] with math, they really struggle with the application piece of it. Okay, so I actually don't think that the kids care about it as much as the teachers maybe think they should.

So, I would just say, you know, the most important thing is just teach the math well and be passionate about, about math. And do we do this in other subjects? Is everybody going around saying, why should I read Shakespeare? I mean, all the things that I learned in school and university that I don't use today.

I mean, most of the things. But was that wasted time? Of course not, right? Like some, that's the other thing is some of this stuff that you learn, you end up using it in ways that you don't realize. Like math teaches students to be logical, it teaches them to understand mathematical definitions, it teaches problem solving, all sorts of things like that.

[00:36:00] So 13 year old middle school kid says, yeah, but but miss Stocky, why do I need to know this? Why do I need to know algebra? What's what's what's a good response

Oh yeah, you, you're asking such great questions. Well, okay, so I would say nothing in this modern world that you enjoy, really, you know, your phone your laptop, whatever it is you're doing, would be possible without math, so it is the root, it's the root of the sciences, engineering, engineering. Data science, AI, technology, economics, business.

Without it, none of those fields would exist. Okay, so, and taking math opens doors. Students have lots of opportunities. You know, what do we do when we try to recruit students to the math program? We send them a list of, of jobs that they can get. with math, right? Most of the highest paying [00:37:00] jobs involve a fair amount of math background, right?

For algebra, you asked me about algebra. Well, if you're going to study anything that has science or technology related or business related, you're going to use algebra, right? It, it makes solving really difficult applied problems possible. So that's probably what I'd say.

You know, I have a feeling it doesn't matter what you tell a 12 year or 13 year old anyway, but,

Yeah, probably.

if they were successful, they'd keep coming back. And, and I, and I think that's the. That's the key. You know, kids are motivated by success and effective teaching. They learn more, they come back, and and that's it.

Anna, God, it has been a pleasure. Is there anything you would like to share before we, before we leave?

Well, okay. So I guess I [00:38:00] would say consider listening to my podcast. It's called Chalk and Talk, and I have lots of experts on to talk about math and education more generally. So yeah, that's about it, but it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.

Well, well, thank you, Anna. And if you are enjoying these podcasts, then please give us a five star rating on Apple Podcasts. And you can find me on Twitter or X. at G Tabernetti, or at my website, TessCG. com, which you will find in show notes. Anna uh, Joy, thank you so much.

Thank you.

If you are enjoying these podcasts, please give us a five star rating on Apple Podcasts, and you can find me on Twitter, x at G Tabernetti, and on my website, tesscg. com, that's T E S S C G dot com, where you'll get information about how to order my books, teach fast, focused, [00:39:00] adaptable, structured teaching, and maximizing the impact of coaching cycles.

Thank you for listening. We'll talk to you soon.