Rehearsal & Instructional Coaching with Zach Groshell
Gene Tavernetti: [00:00:00] Welcome to Better Teaching, Only Stuff That Works, a podcast for teachers, instructional coaches, administrators, and anyone else who supports teachers in the classroom. This show is a proud member of the BE Podcast Network shows that help you go beyond education. Find all our shows@bepodcastnetwork.com. I Am Jean Taver Netti, the host for this podcast. And my goal for this episode, like all episodes, is that you laugh at least once and that you leave with an actionable idea for better teaching. A quick reminder, no cliches, no buzzwords. Only stuff that works
Today I'm joined by my friend, Zach Groeschel, for another episode of Thinking Out Loud. Dr. Groeschel, of course, is very well known for his podcast, Progressively Incorrect, and his new book, Just Tell Them. [00:01:00] So today, Zach and I will be thinking out loud about the role of rehearsal and professional development, as well as the role of rehearsal in instructional coaching.
I think you'll enjoy this one.
Dr. Zach Groshell: Welcome back to Thinking Out Loud. I'm with my friend Gene Tabernetti, and we are continuing to sort of talk about the more practical side of PD, teaching and leadership in this podcast series on both of our podcasts. So welcome back. Last episode, Gene, we talked about sort of what does it feel like to be coached, right? And we kind of, we talked about a specific experience, a moment that I had coaching recently as a teacher. And today we're going to move to something I think is probably maybe one of the more controversial topics in the world of instructional coaching and PD in general. So here's our question. Does PD and [00:02:00] coaching need to involve Rehearsal. And we'll define that and we're going to talk about that. so first of all, Gene maybe answer this question. You're coaching someone and you're in a coaching cycle. What would it look like a coaching cycle that involves rehearsal versus one that doesn't have rehearsal?
Gene Tavernetti: Well, I'm going to go back to the question a little bit to provide some context about being in a coaching cycle. And that is the PD part. And I think every PD should involve some sort of rehearsal or practice. And where does that happen? Well, I believe when you do a PD, when you're training people, You are modeling what a lesson should look like.
So if I'm doing a PD with a group of teachers, the, there's going to be a part where I am explaining what's going on, and then we're going to practice it somehow. There's going to be a we do [00:03:00] in the PD itself. So ~we have a whole group of,~ we have a whole group of teachers doing what we're talking about.
So do we call it, I don't necessarily calling it rehearsing at that point, but they're getting some familiarity with it. And I'm modeling what that looks like. So they get to see what it looks like. And then there's a, we do. And then when we get to the coaching cycle and they're actually doing a lesson, then that's going to be the, you do, and they're going to be completing whatever we talked about.
~in in context,~ in the context of a lesson. So it's real life. So it's not, okay, I'm going to pull you out and you know, we're going to do this imaginary scenario and you're going to, we're going to put you in it. No, we're actually going to watch you teach and do something. And whatever, however they performed during that lesson, then it will guide what further sort of rehearsal that may [00:04:00] be necessary, uh, to move forward.
So, I never do it as a, and I don't think anybody should do it, just as a Okay, here's this thing we're going to teach you how to do without seeing it in context, without seeing a real person performing it.
Dr. Zach Groshell: Love it. I mean, and I've got a lot of examples, but the, Here's one, tell me, and actually I think we workshopped this one together in advance of one of my PDs. So, here's an example of a rehearsal task when it comes to modeling. My book is called Just Tell Them, so a lot of people want people to come and teach their staff about modeling these days. And so, I'm there talking about modeling, ~and I'm talking and talking about modeling.~ And I say, what are all the research elements that have to do with modeling? And I could just end it there, right? You have now have a survey. of everything that I know about modeling. You're probably, the likelihood of you transferring some of that into your practice is probably limited. [00:05:00] Now, what we workshopped would be that at some point in time I model the process of scripting out an explanation in advance of teaching with real material that I'm going to teach tomorrow. And I make sure I incorporate an example and a non example or whatever, a visual. And then I have, so I have certain criteria that's going to go into my script. ~Then that's sort of, that's the I do.~ And then finally, I model, you know, what I did in my script. And I show, like, you know, I'm using the script. I'm still modeling the whole thing. It's I do. But then I have the teachers work together to script out for their curriculum, not some imaginary scenario, their actual material they're going to teach tomorrow. They script out how they're going to say it using certain criteria from the research database on modeling, and then they turn to each other and they do it. They practice it on one or another. So an I do, we do, you do, kind of a gradual release model. What are your thoughts just on that kind of [00:06:00] sit, you know, that kind of setup there?
Gene Tavernetti: Well, I remember reading about that in your book, about having a specific language, and it's one of the things that If you don't, if a teacher doesn't prepare they say, okay, well, I'm going to teach about X today and I'm going to give a couple examples. And what a teacher doesn't realize is that their language changes slightly each time.
And you've got novices in the classroom, you know, trying to make sense. And you need at least two different examples, two different data points to be able to generalize. And if you didn't say it exactly the same way, Then kids could be confused, especially if you've got second language learners in there, and they're, you know, you've got novices in the content, novices in the language, and they're trying to pick up the cues, and they're trying to generalize, they're trying to make all these points, and you change it every time you talk that's [00:07:00] why it's important for you to do what you do and to talk about the research and what the comprehension is going to be.
So that the teachers now can develop that script and that goes to one of the important points that I think that we need to do in rehearsal that it's not about nothing, you know, it's not like here's this imaginary thing. Now we want you to develop this. Go back to your example is this is a lesson you're going to teach.
You're going to teach this, so if that's the point, then what we want you to do is, how exactly do you want to say that? And getting back to your original question about coaching cycles, I will have teachers do that. Like, I will ask them, we will get to, how are they going to model? What are you going to say?
And that, we will stop and script. And we will stop in script if the teacher, as I'm listening to the teacher, they change it every time, [00:08:00] they go whoa whoa, you said it perfectly last time, ~let's get that, let's get that,~ let's get it down, so that they are rehearsing what they're going to be doing in the future versus just this imaginary play acting.
Dr. Zach Groshell: Right, and we can all come up with those fake things that sound cute, right? Like, okay, I want you to script out how you tie your shoes. Right? And the teacher goes ahead and scripts out. Okay, it's the bunny ears method. I cross over, right? And then we could have the same conversation around economy of language around examples around visualizing and pausing for think time, whatever. But number one, it feels for me, very artificial. And we could call that role playing, right?
It's fake. It feels staged. And then when you do it, you the second part of that, other than it just has this weird feeling to it, is that, you know, It doesn't lead into tomorrow's lesson, which is the most important thing because as a coach, I want to [00:09:00] come back in tomorrow and I want to see it, right?
And
so I can't be sure that the bunny ears method scripting is going to lead to you scripting your example. So I do it right then and there. And then tomorrow we have the live performance, not the rehearsal, but the live
Gene Tavernetti: right, yeah. Yeah, no, and it gets back to something that I talk about. all the time. And that is, you know, having respect for teachers. And what do teachers hate? Why do they hate coaching? Figured this is not for me. There, there wasn't anything for me in this PD. There wasn't anything for me in my coaching cycle.
Uh, and I'm wasting my time. You have to add value to to the teacher's practice. And if you're just play acting, what was the term you used?
Role play. If you're just, if you're just role playing and then, you know, you have one teacher being the teacher and the other teacher and the other person in the role play [00:10:00] being some jerk student, you know, to try to make it as hard on the teacher as you can.
If it was me, I'm walking it out. I, you know, and was one of those, I was one of those teachers sitting in the back with his arms crossed, you know, so I'm always worried about if I can satisfy that teacher, the one with the arms crossed in the back, and make that worthwhile, so that they're rehearsing something that's going to make them better.
Tomorrow, what they want to do, man that's where I think we need to be as coaches.
Dr. Zach Groshell: There's a difference between being coached by a personal trainer at the gym and feeling like you signed up for a cheesy after school drama club thing, right? Where like some hack is like trying to get you to put on, you know, pretend this stick is a wand, right?
And you go, what did I sign up for?
for here right now. I want this is serious to me. I want to be on my time to be honored. And so I think that the [00:11:00] way to do that is number one. You have the rehearsal task be the same thing they're going to do the next day, right? That gets rid of most of it. But also to, I think, set it up in a way that acknowledges that teaching is a performance.
You have to do it at some point in time, and it's best to do it just like with Cognitive Load Theory. It's best to do it before it's in context, so that way you can kind of work out the kinks, and you don't have to hold all these extraneous things in mind. You just focus narrowly on one aspect of your teaching, And then go out and do it in the real world with all those extra variables in the kid's behavior, right?
So I think those are my criteria, but ~I want to ask you before we leave this first question, like, like what coach,~ I want you to describe kind of the role this plays In coaching and PD compared to what we typically get out of PD, which is sort of a sit and get or a conversation that doesn't involve the teacher actually rehearsing anything.[00:12:00]
Gene Tavernetti: well, it wasn't gosh, when I first got into education in 77 one of the biggest complaints about PD was, oh, we brought this person in and they told us how to do this thing, but they didn't model it themselves. And so when we think about PD if somebody asks me for advice about how to do it, I got to do an hour of PD, I said, don't plan an hour of PD.
What's your lesson? What's your learning objective? What do you want them to get out of it? You know, you do the same thing. You model what you want the teachers to do, because if you're up there saying, you know what, cognitive load theory, it applies to every human being, and then you overload them, or, you know, you You, you just need to model what you are, what you're talking about.
So I think it starts with the PD and you you're effective in what you're effective in your presentation. You're, there's some practice in there, some rehearsal, and that's [00:13:00] how you do it.
Dr. Zach Groshell: Absolutely. Let me let me pull up a couple of rehearsal tasks now. Cause I think the listeners are going to really want to be like specific in what sort of things you can do. And I have a bunch of, different types of rehearsal tasks. I think we can all appreciate what it would look like to rehearse something that is performative, like turn and talks.
So I'm going to start with turn and talks, but then I'm going to transition to rehearsal tasks that are not actually a technique as a teacher does, not a move, but maybe a pre lesson thing that doesn't require the teacher to stand up and teach it. In front of the coach or in the PD with a partner, they require you to sit down and write something down or to build something, right?
So let's start, though, with like, with turning and talk, right? So, in this list I'm getting from StepLab, the platform that I work for, in this list I have a goal, which is use [00:14:00] pair talk, use, use a think pair share, and then the step that they're trying to get the teacher to use is to do a version of turn and talk, which is write pair share, right?
You write before you do it, you pair up with the partner, and then you share it, right? As you and I know, turn and talks going into classrooms are either non existent. Or if there's not a routine in place that's that would make them effective. They're inconsistent, and some people don't even do them because they frequently feel negative feedback from the students when they do it, and so it would be important to get this right, not just talk about it, but actually do it. plan in some rehearsal either in a PD session or an instruction coaching cycle that would get right pair share to be a technique that could be used to, to further students learning. So in the rehearsal tasks for right pair share We have select an upcoming [00:15:00] lesson and identify a moment when you will use paired discussion after introducing new content. So together, we talk about, we start talking about the lesson and what's going to go on tomorrow, right? And we start to kind of write down on a piece of paper together. When we're gonna, when we're gonna do that first thing, right? And then finally, that first paired discussion. Then we're gonna go decide on keywords and concepts which you want students to rehearse in their paired discussion.
So now we're looking at what kind of content do I, what I have had to pre teach and what kind of questions am I gonna ask, right? And we're writing this down. We're thinking about the lesson with the coach. Finally, we're gonna script and plan our instructions for different stages of right pair share.
including when we're going to do it. So we're going to say, you know, maybe our wording is silent solo in your notebooks, 3, 2, 1, get everybody to write in their notebooks or it's, you know, pencils down. All pencils are moving 3, 2, [00:16:00] 1. There we go. Right? We practice each element, write down and script it. And then we're going to have the coach model it. And then check that the coachee understands it. Then the coachee, the teacher is gonna try it out. And finally, when am I gonna see this in the next lesson? It's right here. I'll see you tomorrow at the beginning of the lesson. That's kind of an example of like a full set of sequence of coaching through rehearsal tasks.
What are your thoughts and some of the nuances around just that, that scenario.
Gene Tavernetti: Well, there are several things that I like about that I think are effective. Number one, it's that it's a complex movement. It's not just, we're not just going to teach you to do the right pair share. We're going to talk about the context in which it occurs, which is in a well designed lesson.
So, so if you're going to do a think and pair share, what do you need to think about before? How are you teaching this? You know, what do they need to know at this [00:17:00] point in the lesson? Because that's going to drive your question, that's going to drive the right pair share. So it's complex. It's not just the right pair share.
It is all, you know, it's like we're almost fooling them into, you got to think more about this lesson because you could be a, you could be a terrific right pair share kids, but what are they talking about? You know, you have to give them some things to talk about. So, so what you've described.
Again, goes back to what I talked about in modeling it during the PD. So I may need to model it here, but I want to have modeled this technique in the PD to be able to have a reference point. So say, so I can go back and tell the teacher or ask the teacher. So when we did this in the training, remember we did this in the training.
So, and I asked you to think about it first or write about it first. What was powerful for you there? So they're reflecting on it and they're evaluating. They're not just learning how to do it. [00:18:00] They are being able to reflect on how powerful it was to have the instructions and how much the instructions make kids accountable.
You know, because if you say, okay, you've got 10 seconds and in your answer, here's a language frame here. Here's a frame in which you are going to include all the content that we just talked about, or the, you know, the one concept that we just talked about. Now it's going to work. Again, it's not a role play.
It's rehearsal on something real that's happening.
Dr. Zach Groshell: Right. And I love that you, because you're sort of, for me, the guru of lesson planning, right? Your teach fast book really is the best book there is out there in terms of planning a lesson in a way that Rosenshine and Engelman and Anita would all appreciate, right?
Right. So like, setting the rehearsal in the context of the actual upcoming lesson [00:19:00] is so crucial, and I think it's the missing element. I think we're talking around, in general, generic teaching when we're talking to teachers, and we need to get them to talk about tomorrow and that involves scripting and you can call it whatever you want.
You could call it writing it down, but planning it, but it involves putting it down onto paper, thinking about your curriculum documents and thinking about the moves you're going to make in order to make that curriculum go into their heads. And then I'm going to close the loop tomorrow. And come and check it out, right?
I'm
gonna go, I'm gonna be there as your coach on the side, as your sort of, as, this is the game, right?
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.
Dr. Zach Groshell: Let me transition now, because when I talk about rehearsal with coaches, the first thing they think is, that makes sense for right pair share, that makes sense for choral response. How do I rehearse something, with a teacher that is not happening live as a performative element of their [00:20:00] engagement.
It's not a teacher movement. It's something that happens during or before or after that isn't so neat and tidy like think, pair, share, or core response. So I'm going to get another one up here. This one is This one, the goal is well structured units and lessons, the big overarching goal. And then the step is plan units around key knowledge, right? So now we are talking more around instructional and curriculum design and lesson planning. We're not actually talking about a live move a teacher would enact in context with students present. And so the rehearsal tasks we have here on the StepLab platform say first is consider the curriculum documentation and examine, and examination requirements.
So we're here with the coachee or we're here with our PLC, whatever. And we, let's get the stuff out, right? Let's look at it, right? And that's the first rehearsal task is let's not [00:21:00] talk around it. Let's get it out, right? And then it goes, lists all the knowledge points to be mastered. So most curriculum documents are vague and too higher level.
They're talking about like end goals. Let's actually pull out the facts and the key. Concepts that need to be learned. The procedures and let's write them down, right? Then let's sequence these points and spread them out over across time. So let's together. Let's let's make a what would be a reasonably easy and straightforward logical sequence of each of these ideas so that each flows to the next, right? You could do that in multiple ways. And finally, specify the knowledge in more detail and briefly outline what students are to master, right? The responses they should be able to give. So now we're talking about not what you just say and present, but ~what are the,~ what would be the criteria that the student themselves should be able to do or articulate, right? And we work on it that way. [00:22:00] We never get to the point in this where The teacher needs to stand up and do a choral response, right? They're sitting the whole time. I call this rehearsal. I mean, do you call it something different? But I see it as in the same ballgame. You know what I mean?
Gene Tavernetti: You know, I, as you were discussing it I never thought about it as rehearsal, but the way that I thought about it, The way that I think about these tasks as as the instructional hierarchy, it's that, okay, you want to plan a unit, and the unit is going to consist of these discrete lessons, we've got to start at the discrete lesson level, because it doesn't make any sense to say, Oh, I'm going to do this, then I'm going to do this, and talk about sequence until you understand what's possible in your 40 minute lesson.
And so each of these are both, each of these components, each of these tasks are both micro and macro. And I [00:23:00] think we need to start with the micro. Let's talk about how we can design a lesson. Because this is one of the things that I think is, you need to know what's possible, you need to know where you're going, and there's much more possible in a lesson than many people think, if we're including all of these components that you just talked about, uh, what you just described, whether it's a unit or a lesson but that's why I have told lots of staffs, you know, it's, don't worry about the you're still, don't worry about your pacing guide, because it's imaginary to begin with, but it's double imaginary, it's hallucinatory, if you haven't, if you don't know what you could do each day.
So, so okay, you had to do a pacing guide, they told you to do it, but now let's get granular, let's talk about a lesson, now let's stack these lessons, and do our units, we can have our projects at the end but I never thought about them as rehearsal tasks. [00:24:00] But it's practice. They absolutely are, you know, but you're right, it's different.
It's not just sitting there versus performing, but it's sitting and thinking, and now in our rehearsal, you know, it's like we're getting them into character. Okay, so what do we need to think about at this point? So it's
Dr. Zach Groshell: Yeah, that's right. And I think that what I think I want coaching to move towards and PD as well is that is the same thing I want to work on with most teachers. To be honest, I think most of us understand that presentation and modeling is sort of the first step because it arms people with a common language, a common set of things, facts, and understandings that now we can all talk about. So we start explicitly by presenting some information. But what happens with both PD and teaching is then the same problem, is that we now [00:25:00] say, Go do it yourself. And with teaching, that means go teach for 180 days. And with actual, with students, it means here's an assignment that has a lot of problems and you're going to do, you're going to be all the way on problem eight by the time you figure out that you've been doing all of them wrong.
How does that feel? Right? Right. Feels awful, right? And so we need to bridge this gap between I do and you do with. Practice, and I call that rehearsal, and or right, and we can call, basically what I think coaching and PD needs to incorporate is the this because it's the missing link.
Gene Tavernetti: It's the gap. How do we get it's like anything that you talk about in instruction. You know, we can't go from novice to expert. What's the gap? What's going to the path that's going to, that's going to lead us there? And you cannot do that. You can't, you cannot do that with the coach not knowing the teachers, you know, and [00:26:00] it's, and you know, Stephen Covey talked about it.
God, whatever his. Seven Habits came out talking about the fifth point on the compass of, you know, like, where are you now? Where are we starting? So if I go in to coach Zach on some aspect, some element of something that we rehearsed, either during the PD or during a coaching cycle and a lesson design, lesson, I need to know who Zach is to help him get over that gap.
For Zach, the gap might be just a little shuffle. And for Gene, man, I've got a, I've got to take a running start. I got a big leap because I'm not even close. And so, so the rehearsal, the feedback, the observation, it's all has to be dependent on where that teacher is now. And again, getting back to, you know, my, my big, point about respect.
[00:27:00] I need to respect everything that Zach has accomplished so far as a teacher, and we're going to talk about those little things that, that Zach might tweak, not go back, and I'm not going to give the same talk to Zach that I did to everybody else. And the other thing that I may be a little bit,
I think at some point good enough is good enough, you know,
Dr. Zach Groshell: Yeah.
Gene Tavernetti: it's like nothing is a hundred percent. You know, Zach, you did this, you know, boy, you did four turn of talks and one of them you didn't do such and such. You know, we're not going to sit and make you, you know, okay, let's practice this turn to talk again.
You just become aware of it and you know, and yeah, you know, I'll think about that next time. I just need to be, I just need to be aware of it. I know how to do it. I don't need to practice it again.
Dr. Zach Groshell: Absolutely. I mean, I, and I think most people would agree with that. It's just that [00:28:00] there are a handful. We're talking about 10 schools, maybe in the world where precision is down to that level. And at that point in those schools, I'm just thinking, Oh, off the top of my head, like Michaela Community School, right?
If every lesson is so systematically similar, the coach is going to be focused on that level of precision. But every, when you're in a coaching program and every other run, run of the mill public schools, right? At some point in time, you can't be that person who says, so two of your four turn and talks were great.
Two of them, these, this was wrong. And They're just gonna give up on you, right? They're gonna see, they're gonna see that level of feedback. You and I have talked about that with our podcasts, like, I, I want your feedback on my podcast and my performance and what I said, but gosh, maybe I was tired.
You know, there's some take the edge off of that, right? I
wasn't as articulate today. [00:29:00] Geez, you know,
Gene Tavernetti: yeah. Well, and I know I've, you know, I've worked with coaches and they've asked me, well, what if you go in and a coach does a good job, but what do you tell them? You tell them, boy you're an effective teacher. I'll see you in a month.
You know, we'll check in. I mean, you know, just because your task to work with the teacher, sometimes your work is done for a while.
And again, the teacher will appreciate the fact that you respect what they do. You respect their accomplishments. And and I think that's how you, that's how you develop that trust, that professional relationship with it, with a teacher. You don't go to a doctor all the time when you're healthy.
You know, once a year.
Dr. Zach Groshell: Do
we understand this better with students? Like, do we understand that just positive reinforcement? always seems to increase the behavior that we want, right? But then with teachers, we're like looking for something that like will justify our [00:30:00] existence. We're like, what is wrong? And I have to find something like if you give a, if you praise something or just say, man, see in a month, you're going to get the teacher to do all the good things you wanted them to do more often.
Gene Tavernetti: Exactly. And I don't know why we think that you know, psychology differs. And one of the things that I differ with, and I absolutely disagree with, is this idea of adult learning theory. The only thing different about working with adults. is they'll tell you they think you know you're worthless.
You know, you go to a PD and I mean, I don't want to say worthless, but there are comments that teachers will make that teach, that kids in a classroom don't make, but they're thinking it. You know, instead of walking out like an adult would do, the kid's just turning off, you know, they're checking out, they're checking out, but they're still at their desk.
So, you're at every level, from [00:31:00] administration to teacher to student, it's all the same. It's all the same.
Dr. Zach Groshell: I absolutely agree. And what a fun little debate to have when you're in psychology 101, but what a, like, let's. I think let's move on and start thinking more that they're more of the same than different. You know what I mean? And that these techniques work with anybody because it's instruction.
It's all good instruction. So we looked at some of the rehearsal tasks. We discussed you know, that the absence of practice or rehearsal in professional development is, leaves it wanting more and could be improved by adding it. I guess I wanted to ask, sort of, you know, how can you set this up? Because it's not normal in this, it doesn't match with teachers expectations of what PD and coaching should look like. They expect when they go to a lecture hall on a Friday at three that They will get a good PowerPoint presentation but they don't [00:32:00] expect to have to write a bunch of stuff or stand up and say a bunch of stuff or work with a partner or go back to their classrooms and try it out.
Right. And the same goes with coaching. They kind of expect to have a discussion with the coach. They don't expect that the coach is going to have them do anything. Right. And so, so how do you get, how do you think we build this in at the beginning of the year during staff training and throughout the year so that people come to expect this.
Gene Tavernetti: I'm laughing a little bit here, Zach, because, you know, you have to be, you have to be competent. If you're going to do a PD, you can't slap a few slides together. And now read them. And, you know, I don't know if this has happened to you, but it's happened to me. I'll go to a school where I've worked before and I'll see that, that they're using, you know, my presentation.
They may have changed the aesthetics, but they're using my presentation and the presentation sucked, you know, and [00:33:00] so teachers are so used to having Bad PD. They're so used to being talked at. They're so used to having to go to a PD and it doesn't apply to them directly, and so they check out. And so, again, we have to respect the teachers and be sure that when we ask them to be someplace for an hour, it's worth an hour of their time.
I know that, you know, I have been, you know, You know, contracted to do a PD with the staff and they'll say, okay, well, we go from 8 to 3 30. And I said, well, I don't, you know, because it's just way too long. And the teachers want to get out of there. It's like having, you know, day long PDs before school starts.
You know, what do the teachers want? Teachers want to get in their classroom, get prepared, get to work and so, why do we do this, you know, and I think it goes back to one of the comments you made earlier, the coaches [00:34:00] think their job is to go in and criticize, and to give critiques no, we need to realize what Our clientele are feeling, you know, because they have legitimate beefs about the way things have been before.
And I know I've talked to you, Zach, and you know, I was, Hey, Zach, how was the presentation? Oh, they loved me. Well, yeah. You know, compared to who they had, not that you're not good, Zach, but compared to who came before you. Yeah. And so. I think that's a big part of it. We have to earn the trust back of the teachers with whom we were working.
And part of that trust is You know, we're not going to waste your time. And it's the, you know, like a few years ago when email was, you know, became everybody had email. It's like, we don't have to have staff meetings, a lot of staff meetings anymore because we just send out emails. It shows information.
So it's kind of on that continuum. If we're going to do a PD like, like let's say [00:35:00] a PD on using whiteboards, I don't need to do an hour. I've modeled it during a presentation and now we're going to practice it, you know, maybe for 15 minutes and answer questions. And, you know, how did the kids get it?
Where did the whiteboards go? What if I have a pen that doesn't work? You know, yada, yada, yada. But I'm not going to, you know, we're not going to do two hours. So, so I think that's where we start. You know, we earn the trust back of the teachers by being competent in what we do.
Dr. Zach Groshell: Love it. Love it. And let me add my thoughts to this because I think it's I think there's something, cause I've seen so many schools start the year off. really well, and I've seen even more schools start the year off where it was a lost, it was a missed opportunity. I think as a school leader, right, as the principal, the head of school, right, it's your job to set the culture. set the stage for professional learning, [00:36:00] right? Like at this place, I imagine this to be like, kind of like a daily learning festival where we are all focused on moving the needle for student achievement, right? And part of that is how We do RPD, right? RPD is high quality, it's interactive, it's demanding of you, but we will not waste your time while you are here, right?
You will learn more in this year than you did in any of the previous years you did at any other school, right? And then the other side is this is our coaching program. This is Zach, right? Zach is a amazing instructional coach. Why? Because he understands. How to how to bridge the gap between what we learn in the PD and what happens in the classroom.
And he is going to do it this way. And part of that is rehearsal tasks, right? Let me show you a coaching cycle. I'm going to model with Zach right now. And we sit up and we do it right.
And we go, [00:37:00] this is what it looks like. This is what it looks like to be with a coach and not a therapist. and not a friend, right?
This is a coaching cycle, right? That's what I think kind of needs to go on, at least in that first week and throughout the year.
Gene Tavernetti: you know, it's funny. I've had at the end of PDs, I had a middle school teacher come up to me and give me some of the highest praise I've ever had. And this is a very veteran teacher. And she said, wow, you know what? This was almost worth it today. And again, they come in with some such low expectations or at the end of a coaching cycle a teacher will say, you know, Wow, you that's it?
That's all? He said, yeah, and he goes, well, that wasn't bad. And so, so yeah, they have such low expectations. ~All right, Zach, let's mark the time. How much time are we in here? Here recording time. Okay, I'll find it. I have to go. I forgot to bring my plug in for my computer. I'll be right back.~
Dr. Zach Groshell: ~No worries.~
Gene Tavernetti: ~All right, I get so excited to chat with you, Zach, I forget to do new stuff. Okay, now I'm all set again.~
Dr. Zach Groshell: ~Where were we? ~
~I gave a big diatribe about setting it up with you know, and you, and then you said like, oh, the, you know, the, these, we have to meet them where they are with their, with it, but with their expectations it's even good if they come away like, Wow, that was way better than anything I've had before.~
~Like, even~
~if it's subdued a little bit. Okay, editor, let's get, we'll get right back and started, right? Perfect. ~So we are, we're on a roll here, Gene, and I just wanted to end this way. You've told me of examples in which the rehearsal was It felt off. It felt manipulative. Almost. [00:38:00] It felt controlling, you know, the coach or the PD presenters almost bearing down on the participants and getting them to do stuff. I mean, maybe tell us a little bit about one of these and then kind of how can we fix it?
Gene Tavernetti: well, I'll give you an example. This was a video that I saw of a, somebody I really respect, and they We're working with a teacher on how to give better instruction. So it's basically a classroom management type of thing. And so there were five components in the way to give instruction.
And I'm not going to remember them, so I'm going to make them up. One was get attention you know, put materials away, clear instructions you know, you're going to start when I tell you, you know, don't do it now. I mean, there was a clear, there was a clear pathway to do it. And, Effective, that would be effective if you did that and so they had a teacher, [00:39:00] an experienced teacher, do this 20 times, okay, give instructions and the feedback was something like, okay, this time what I want you to do is when you give that instruction, walk into the class, you know, walk towards the students.
This time, you know, keep your voice loud. You were a little bit louder when you spoke to this side of the class than that side of the class. And you know what? Again, I'm telling you If it was me, I've had enough, you know, because just as a teacher, I would have felt I've had enough, but also as a coach, getting back to my statement, sometimes good enough is good enough, you know, and that last 5 percent is not going to be worth the effort.
It's a, it's the it's the old 80 20, you know, where are you getting your value? Is it worth it , to rehearse something that's not going to get you any more student learning?
Dr. Zach Groshell: Absolutely. And [00:40:00] also like, yeah, that it's not going to get you any more student learning, but let's say you imagine that it does what, how could it backfire, right? You're stuck on this one thing and all of a sudden you're now shooting yourself in the foot by you're undermining the whole process by making the teacher feel like they're stuck on this step in the, they just have to please you to get you off their back.
Right. You know what I mean?
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah, well, and not only will they do that to get you off their back, but guess what? They don't want to come back. You know, they'll find a reason not to meet with you next time. I just think respect is the total absolute bottom line in, in, in working with teachers.
Dr. Zach Groshell: love it. Gene, you know, I love these talks. Let's keep them going. Every time we think of something new, a new topic, we should we should we should come on here and think aloud about it. Listeners, thank you so much for listening to our podcasts. Have a great rest of your day.
Gene Tavernetti: If [00:41:00] you're enjoying these podcasts, tell a friend. Also, please leave a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. You can follow me on BlueSky at gTabernetti, on Twitter, x at gTabernetti, and you can learn more about me and the work I do at my website, BlueSky. Tesscg. com, that's T E S S C G dot com, where you will also find information about ordering my books, Teach Fast, Focus Adaptable Structure Teaching, and Maximizing the Impact of Coaching Cycles.
Talk to you soon!