Better Teaching: Only Stuff That Works

welcome to Better Teaching
Only Stuff that Works.

A podcast for teachers, instructional
coaches, administrators, and anyone else

who supports teachers in the classroom.

I'm Gene Tavernetti, the
host for this podcast.

My goal for this episode, like all
episodes, is that you laugh at least

once and that you leave with an
actionable idea for better teaching.

A quick reminder.

We will only be sharing
only stuff that works.

No cliches, no buzzwords.

My guest today is Dr.

Zach Rochelle.

Dr.

Rochelle is a highly distinguished
teacher, instructional coach

and education consultant.

Zach is based in Seattle, Washington,
but works with schools both here in the

United States as well as internationally
to develop high quality instruction

based on the science of how kids learn.

Zach's voice may be familiar to
many of you as he hosts the popular

podcast Progressively Incorrect,
where he interviews instructional

leaders and distinguished
scholars from around the world.

You may also recognize
him from Twitter at Mr.

Zach G, where he frequently shares
research and opinions about the

most relevant and current research
on the science of learning.

You can also read his
blog@educationrickshaw.com.

Welcome, Zach.

Good to have you.

Oh, it is great to be here, Jean.

I'm very excited to be part of
the beginning, the beginning days

of this, this budding podcast.

thank you Zach.

it's interesting that you talk about being
part of the budding days because that's

how I became familiar with you listening
to season one of Progressively Incorrect.

Where, and correct me, describe
this, help me describe this.

It was a friend of yours and it
was pretty much for 10 episodes.

You guys had a debate.

What was that?

What was that debate about?

Or just discussion?

We could say it was a discussion.

the, original idea was, yeah, to
have a debate, between two people

with opposing views on most things.

In education, specifically
the teaching wars, right?

where I took on the viewpoint
that, teaching should be, one

that is led by the teacher.

classroom management needs to be managed
by the teacher and essentially a teacher

led model, versus his, his viewpoint.

was that, that the students should
drive the learning and lead the learning

and do projects and things like that.

It's funny, depending on who listened
to that, that, first season, a lot of

people have mixed feelings about the
whole thing, thinking, perhaps one of

us was faking it or that it was staged.

And really it was just a show of
us just having a chat about, about

what we thought about education.

I could tell you it's, where I became
a fan because I would be listening, to

the podcast and, your counterpart would
make an argument and I would say, Zach,

say this, And, then you would say it.

okay.

I think we're on the same wavelength here,
but your podcast isn't like that anymore.

tell us about, how it's changed
and, where you see the vision of

your podcast, where it's going.

Bradley, who is the, my counterpart,
he, went on to, write a book about his

Peace Corps experience and, and he's
doing really great things right now.

so I had to, decide to what am I gonna do
next for the next season of this podcast.

And, I started to do the interview,
model, which, you're doing right now.

And very quickly, I was able to.

just dig through my research and all of
the articles that I read all the time

and just start finding researchers,
that I really wanted to talk to.

So that's, the main
type of guest, I think.

But, also interviewing teachers.

We really, I really wanna balance
out having teacher voices and,

other folks, instructional coaches.

just people that I find interesting.

That typically follow my line of
thinking around teaching, which

continues to be like the first season
continues to be, around explicit

instruction and classroom management.

Yeah.

it's funny how, we, think we are
saying things that's non-controversial,

but it is, it, can be.

It, it, can be, I guess that's just
the way, I was gonna say that's the

way the world is, but that's a cliche.

No cliches on this show.

That's just, how people are.

the podcast, your podcast keeps evolving,
but you, are doing something new.

I know you've, your background
has been as a teacher.

What's, new for you?

the big, it's almost an announcement.

I guess the big change in my
life has been to leave, teaching,

to do this work full time.

I started the podcast and people got
interested in it, and I got, a small

army of followers listening to that.

And also the Twitter was going on.

and so what would happen is schools
would reach out to me and say,

Hey, can you do some training?

For us, love your podcast.

Unfortunately, I'm actually, I'm teaching,
or instructional coaching, that whole,

during that time I left the classroom to
be an instructional coach for, four years.

I couldn't really get
away from the, school.

I couldn't really, say yes
as much as I wanted to.

And, but when I did go out to
schools, it was really, enjoyable.

Being able to actually talk with the
leadership and influence a school

that is in a completely different
district or state, even country.

it, it's it's amazing that when you're
in your own school, you can only

affect the small little bubble you're
in, but you go somewhere else and you

might even make a change for an entire
district, through you being there.

And so I decided to pursue that now.

Full-time, starting, this summer
2024, being a full-time, trainer,

professional development provider,
and educational consultant.

congratulations.

I know that it's not an easy,
it's not an easy move to make.

it does take, A little bit
of, courage to make that leap.

'cause it is very different.

It is very different when you
are, controlling the ship.

can you talk a little bit, you talked
about the difference between being

out in a school and being able to
make change versus, in a school.

why do you think that,
why do you think that is?

Any thoughts?

It's, a very strange thing that I never.

I never really expected.

I got my PhD a few years ago and I started
to think, maybe I, had, illusions that

would change how people perceived me.

Like that they might see me as, an
expert in education in my own school,

and I wouldn't really need to leave.

this work be, working directly
with kids is my passion.

but what, really happens, I think
in a lot of districts is they're

looking, for people outside to
come and help them make changes

and they don't necessarily look, I.

inside, they don't look for the resources
that they have within their, district, or

they have a very, a subset of the staff
that works in the central district office.

And those are the people that
need to make, the changes

or need to lead the things.

And they don't take the free work of
people like me that are actually on the

ground, that actually working with kids.

Yeah.

they don't seem to.

They don't seem to care too much about
that, it seems, and so what would happen

is I would be going to professional
development that wasn't based on

research that made no sense, right?

poorly or false, false falsely sided,
work of some of the same names over

and over again, and, terrible images
coming out of Pinterest and Google and.

You'd sit there at these, terrible
professional development sessions.

And then on the weekend I'd, go on
out and I'd, work with the school

and I'd do my own professional
development for a different district.

It was just, it became just bizarre.

there was even an
article that came out, I.

called, the title was The Insurgents that
said Zach, Rochelle, works in a school and

hardly anybody seems to know that he does.

He has a podcast, then he
works with other schools.

And that was totally true.

it was a little bit, like
the Twilight Zone a bit.

and so I, I had to make the change.

I had to make the change.

Yeah,

it's funny, I worked At a school
coaching teachers, mainly doing coaching

cycles, a lot of planning with teachers.

And one of the, commitments that a
school would make before we would work

with them is that the principal would
be involved in every, time we met with

a teacher because the idea was that, I
or one of my other consultants wouldn't

be there forever, and we wanted to be
sure that there was, increased capacity

to use a cliche, that people were left
behind that could continue to do the work.

I was working with one principal and
we would be going through the planning

with teachers and her comments.

Were just right on.

it was just absolutely perfect, And
after, after a couple days of working

with her, I just turned to her and
says, why are you paying me to come in?

You're better than me.

And she said, just sometimes you have
to hear it from an outside person, and

it's, a, funny thing, but it's, true.

The idea that somebody has better ideas
from the outside when you've got there.

There's a lot of good people working
in school districts that I think,

like you get stifled or for some
reason, it's not even intentionally

stifled, but, they just don't have
opportunities to, to share stuff that

they know and all the organizational
issues that go along with that.

By having somebody internal now
telling everybody how smart they are.

I, and I can appreciate too that like
I wanna leverage teacher voice in, this

work, but there's a very, small percentage
of teachers who do, a lot, that put in a

lot of work after hours, putting together
PowerPoints, putting together podcasts.

And at a certain point in
time I was doing two jobs.

barely.

I have two kids barely able to, to.

To enjoy being, a father.

I was just, really 14 hours of
work every day, working on the

weekends, at some point in time.

That's part of the math too
is, is this even sustainable?

Can I be in a classroom, or can I
coach teachers and have all these

responsibilities leading these different
initiatives at the school level, and then

spend all of my evenings and weekends.

When I should be parenting,
doing the consulting.

it just got a little crazy too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

one of the thing that you know is
interesting about your background, and

I don't know, some people may not know
this, but, you got your degree, you got

your, you became licensed credentialed
to become a teacher, started teaching,

but then, you left the United States.

talk to us a little bit about,
that part of your history.

How do people do not know about this
entire world that exists out there?

Which is that the people that, that,
that work in embassies or work in NGOs

or, have a lot of money in the, in the
business class, in, in, countries all

over the world, if they don't think
that the country that they are in.

As an expatriate, has a good enough
education system for their kids, they will

pay a lot of money to, send their child
to what's called an international school.

And so there are international schools
all over the world, especially in

countries that don't have a very good
option for, parents who are expats.

And right after I was teaching at
a, native American tribal school in.

Puyallup, at Washington, I
got the opportunity to go and,

teach in Vietnam and then after
Vietnam, I, did two years there.

It was wonderful.

I moved to Sudan.

And then to China, all
in the same kind of idea.

I taught fourth grade,
I taught third grade.

I taught elementary kids.

And these kids were some of the best
behaved, best mannered, high achieving

children of very successful, people,
very wealthy people, in general.

Some of the students in these
schools were from the country.

in Vietnam it was old,
98% of the students.

But in Sudan and in China, it was
mostly students, from various countries.

So you'd look out and you'd
see, oh, that's the, Italian

ambassador's child, and that's
the, The Indian Ambassador's child.

All in your classroom.

So you had the, so you were at
an international school and.

The idea of the international school
was actually to bring American

education to these countries.

So, you were in Vietnam, but you were
teaching same education that they might

get in a traditional school in the us.

Se except there were, it
depended on the school.

There's different models.

So in, in Kicks, which was, in Sudan,
it, had a, it, the IB program, but also

had a bit of a British flavor to it.

They took their GCSEs, for example,
and, they had uniforms, right?

And then you, but then you go to, when I,
was in, Nanjing, in China, it was a fully.

International school really didn't have
any of the American, it didn't have

standards and the same assessments.

It was really their own thing.

But it had the IB program there, but yeah.

But you we're not, I'm not, I
wasn't there teaching English.

'cause what the first thing
people ask, were you in a poor

local school teaching English?

No, I was in a state of the art, very
expensive private school teaching.

What I.

Basically what I would've
taught, in the United States.

Okay.

So what did, what was a big learning
for you or a big aha as you came

back to the United States after that?

What did you bring something with you
or did you leave something behind?

how was it different coming back?

the first thing I was afraid, would've
happened was that I, lost all the

skills that I had developed being a
teacher in the United States, like

these kids were Easy to manage.

I was scared coming back, or I was scared
coming back that I didn't have the chops

anymore to, to manage an actual class
with a, more of a diversity of, behaviors.

the worst performing student
in, Vietnam, Scored at the

50th percentile for that grade.

That was the, that was my bottom
student where everyone else

was in the 99th percentile.

They would do their homework,
you wouldn't have to pester them.

I was I was worried I lost that skill.

And then I came back to perhaps what
was the hardest, most challenging

middle school in my state and found
out, oh, I've still got it right, still.

I still got it.

there's a lot you can learn, I think,
from ruling out behavior and focusing

on your instruction and being able to be
creative with your instruction because

the students will pretty much comply
with whatever you, come up with that day.

I was extremely, grateful for
the opportunity to just be able

to, to play around and try to
discover myself as a teacher.

So I did lots of things like projects and
big old schemes that I don't think I could

have ever tried here at the middle school.

I, was just at, simply
because you'd have, I.

You'd have kids under the tables,
you'd have kids biting each other.

You'd have kids, messing around,
eloping, hurting, bullying each other.

Or I could really come up with
a big idea like, we're gonna

just make a city at a cardboard.

it would go well.

that's probably the
biggest thing I took away.

We're talking about doing
only stuff that works well.

You have to make room for only stuff
that works by dropping other things, so

what I'm hearing you saying is a lot of
stuff that you had to drop when you got

here was a lot of that project based.

stuff and, you just couldn't let him go.

Plus, you had, you have, you didn't
have as many, your classes weren't as

big when you were overseas, were you?

As you are here.

They were smaller, right?

They'd be capped at 18 or 20.

there there were no external examinations,
like no external tests, right?

So there's no, there was no accountability
for, learning or for performance.

So you could do these long extended
things and you'd never find,

out if they learned any, set of.

Things based on external measures.

if you didn't have standards, like one of
my schools didn't, even have standards.

you didn't really need to,
you didn't really need to have

focus teaching on something.

You could really come in and.

Ask the kids what they
wanted to learn that day.

I, however, I'd have to say, after
doing that for some time, I did start

to come around to feeling like I wasn't
giving these kids the best chance.

Yes, these kids have afterschool
tutoring that can fix all of the

problems with my teaching, right?

Yes.

Their parents are very involved
and taught, most of them to read

and to do, basic math before they
even came into kindergarten, I.

But w what was I making a difference for
the kid who needed many more repetitions

when it came to, phonics or to math facts?

, no, I was not right.

Doing these projects, these
kids were not doing math.

, they were cutting, right?

The cardboard, they were
touching the materials.

They weren't doing math.

so I did start to come
around to figuring out.

What I'm doing is I'm
creating cool activities.

I'm not teaching them new things from
the content area that it, that I take for

granted as an adult, as something that's
I can think about and I can use, and then

later, propelled me into being able to.

To choose my career when I got to college.

So I did start to change towards
the more explicit, instruction model

towards the end, but far too late.

So you came here and, when you started
on the, when you were teaching on the

reservation, were, what was your style?

Were you explicit?

Were you, More project based
that you just described or

when, did you make the change?

What happened to, for you to
come on over to the other side?

I think I was in survival teaching
when I was, at the Puyallup school.

it really, I was focused on
behavior and I think maybe I even,

I started to see teaching as only I.

Managing behavior.

I didn't really have the, time or the
mental capacity to think about delivery

or to think about instructional models.

I was really just, how do I enter
my students into the classroom?

How do I get them to sit
down and track the speaker?

How do I get them to have,
maintain a notebook without.

Ripping it up or writing on it.

And so I was, just, I
really was focused on that.

And it was funny when I went to Vietnam,
the first thing I did was I had all

of the students walk in and in a line
just like I would, at my other school.

And they did it without me
needing to repeat the instruction.

And, then I had them all
sit down and they sat down.

They found, they found their seats and I
didn't need to have everyone try it again.

And I started to teach and everyone
started to write, and I'm going,

these are, they're second grade.

These are second graders.

They have all of the learning skills
that I would take me six months

to teach at my previous school.

It was just, it was, bizarre.

So you came back and you realized
very quickly, I gotta go back

and, do what I did before.

Learn, what I did before.

Is there anything else?

one, one of the things, I think we
talked about this once, just in a

conversation talking about your personal
brand and you said, I don't have one.

And I said, yes you do.

Yes you do.

Dr.

Rochelle, you are the research guy.

there's no doubt.

So when did that.

Become, IM important to you.

I know most teachers, or most
people to whom I taught, they are

not interested in research or don't
even understand what research is.

not even graduate level of education, but
beyond master's, into a doctorate level.

Wh when did that happen for you?

How did it happen and, How
do you curate research?

there's so much.

how'd you become that guy?

I was the teacher that also thought they
understood what, research was, right?

Because someone would send you A-A-P-D-F
or some reading, or you'd read something.

and I didn't really realize
what I was reading was a,

writeup, or review of other.

Research.

I thought I was reading the research
and and then also I would, I, but, I

would hear during that time I would
hear people say, but the research

says this is what the research
says, especially around brains.

This is what the teenage brain does.

This is how the brain operates.

And every time I heard
that, I always thought I.

am I crazy?

are you reading things
that I'm not reading?

Because I have no idea if that's true or
not, or if you're just making this up.

So I think that might have been the first,
I remember I was at a, a PD in which v

presenter came in and first thing they
said was, differentiation is, the most

researched, the most highly researched.

skill or strategy teachers can use.

And the first thing I
thought was, is that true?

And then, and right after that, she,
divided us up into four corners according

to learning styles, visual and auditory.

And I remember someone nearby going,
I thought re I thought learning

styles were debunked, right?

And I went.

who's Right.

Yeah.

Is the presenter correct
or is this guy right?

so I think I just started to have
a bit of healthy skepticism around,

around whether or not people that say
that the research says, actually, I.

We're reading research because I wasn't.

So I started to try to figure it out.

I try to create a system.

I had a, I, met someone who was
doing their PhD and they ha they were

using an organization system called
mindle and they, it's an online like.

a platform where you can, you can
organize all of your articles into

files and he's Hey, get on here and
here I'll show you how it works.

And so I just played with it
and he said, this is how you

get, research behind paywall.

This is how you get research
from Google Scholar.

And that might've inspired me to
even just get into the PhD because

I knew I can do this, I can curate
research, I can read it, yeah.

Yeah.

it interesting, I, kinda lean on
you for research and explaining,

one of the things, after I did my
doctorate, I became more curious when

somebody said, the research says.

I saw two things happening.

number one, I would read an abstract,
and when they told me that the sample

was graduate students at a university,
I was done reading it because

I'm worried about second graders.

they graduate students may have a little
bit more, knowledge, may have a little

bit more background knowledge that
is probably gonna impact the study.

The other research that I was
curious about was when, a school or

a district or a state would adopt a
new tech series and they would list

the research that backed the studies.

And it was, their program was
always what they were studying,

what was the impact of the program.

And the other part of the study was,
a teacher who was trained in the new

program and a teacher who sucked, and
look how much better our program is.

And so I became a little bit,
skeptical of research in particular.

Talk, talk me off the ledge.

tell me about good research
that's going on in, in education.

that's the thing is I don't necessarily
encourage teachers to go down the path.

I've gone down because it's so complicated
You can look at any study and you

can find limitations in the study.

You can find that it doesn't apply to your
context if you get into the methodology.

world where you're learning about,
the difference between an covas and

man covas, and all of a sudden you're
going, wow, that wa it maybe ID

maybe that wasn't even the correct,
statistical test they should have used.

And, it is a very complex, world
and education research is famous

for being really poor quality.

so I don't, I, I don't actually fault
people who send me a study and say.

Look, project-based learning works.

And I say, so what did they
compare Project-based learning to?

And then they go, I don't know.

And I said, just, just send me the PDF.

They didn't compare it to anything, right?

They just looked at whether or not.

Project based learning had an effect.

And guess what?

They only reported on engagement, or they
only reported on whether or not there

were certain visible cues that were within
a rubric that the researcher designed.

So are the kids talking to each other?

Yes.

It didn't even report on learning
and which was the whole point.

So I don't even fault people sometimes
for making a lot of those errors.

I made them early.

I, didn't understand what I was.

What I was reading.

however, I think one of the, one of the
really, great things that's come about in

the past few years is that education, at
least on Twitter, has shifted to focusing

more on s research from psychology
and, specifically cognitive science,

behavioral science, some neuroscience.

And these studies, tend to be, More on
experimental side and also higher quality

research because for whatever reason,
education can't get itself together

and produce high quality research.

But psychologists have been
doing good research for decades.

So you can look at something
like, for example, cognitive

load theory, and you go.

Okay.

There are so many, several hundred studies
that have looked at worked examples,

or, modeling step-by-step procedures.

And you can look and see, oh,
there's ones in second grade and

third grade and fourth grade.

And th there's a trend here.

If you put 'em all together.

Using worked examples is better
than not using worked examples.

So if anyone wants, to tell you that, hey,
showing them how to do something doesn't

produce learning, I just point right here.

No, that's not true.

we have research all the way
back to the eighties, hundreds of

studies, in this case, you're wrong.

I think that's powerful, at
least to, to make some inroads

in terms of improving education.

So, thinking about your, answer with
regards to difficulty in reading

studies, difficulty understanding
studies, what do you say to the

folks that say, you know what?

Teachers need to read the research.

It's teachers need to read the research.

Are you one that feels that, like
for me to be a good teacher, I

have to have read the research.

Short answer is no.

I think it's the job of, leaders
and people like you and me in our

position, to, bring the research to
the teacher and have them read it.

but also, but I'll put a a, caveat
on that and that's that there

are a lot of people selling.

Snake oil and education, right?

It's hard to trust any of
these, experts, people.

just the other day somebody told
me, I can't believe that you would

say that this organization that,
develops materials, about math.

I.

could be producing such poor resources.

'cause there's so many people that
are involved in that organization.

How could it be true that
everyone there is wrong?

And the truth is that they've all
bought a philosophical idea of how

to teach math that doesn't match
with, how kids actually learn math.

So what I'm saying here is I don't
think we need to, be encumbering

teachers or forcing teachers, to
feel bad about themselves, about

whether or not they read research.

I.

But as an individual, at some point in
time in my career, I figured I better

read this stuff myself because I can't
trust, I can't trust other people because

I don't know if they understand what
they're reading or I don't know if this

is just a philosophy that they're masking
with that kind of research based language.

if you wanna contact me after this
and talk about how to get started.

I will definitely help you.

I just don't think it's one of those
things that would scale very well,

that every teacher needs to be research
literate in order to be a good teacher.

I think that's an important
message, for them.

'cause I hear people say, you
know what, if the teachers would

just read the research, they would
change, ah, I, I don't believe that.

I always say, my counter argument
is everybody knows about nutrition.

We still have a lot of overweight people.

We don't need one more study is
not gonna convince people to eat

correctly or to exercise correctly.

it's not an intellectual thing.

we talked, quite a bit
about research and teaching.

What about coaching?

how has the, research, guided your,
coaching and working with teachers?

I think you and I agree more
than a lot of people do.

That instructional coaching should,
should be about improving instruction

and should talk about instruction
and to be a good instructional coach.

You need to know a lot about instruction.

And so that, that's really
where the research comes in.

having a really good survey of
the research helps me to be able

to justify some of my advice.

To the teachers.

my own teaching experience though
is, front and center, right?

I, know that this works because
I've done it with so many kids.

What?

You know why, what explains that?

Oh, yeah.

Look at cognitive load theory, right?

The reason why I.

This works is because I'm taking the
load off of the learner for just a

bit so that they can focus on the
material as opposed to having to

think of all these extraneous things.

Or, why is it that asking lots
of questions during the lesson,

quizzing the kids constantly through,
little mini quizzes and drills.

Why does that feel like that works?

Oh, we have this principle
of retrieval practice, right?

So that, that helps me not only to.

Choose what I focus on with the
teachers, but also I can help

explain what they're doing well
already through a research lens.

and for me that I focus more
on the cognitive science, the,

cognitive psychology piece,
in terms of the research.

I think it's really powerful.

So if you were to, if you
were to be giving a piece of

advice to new instructional
coaches, what might you suggest?

the first thing for instructional
coaches, I think is to.

make a plan, especially with
your leadership for how you're

gonna get into classrooms.

you've got to be in there because
that's where you learn, things that

can, feed into to coaching cycles.

we can call these drop-ins
or walkthroughs, but how am I

gonna get into every classroom?

all the time.

How, and, for me, that meant really
locking my office, which my office was

located very far from the classrooms,
and it meant being in the hallways.

It meant entering classrooms
right after transitions.

And as I went into classrooms, I.

Was able to empathize with the
teachers and understand their

situation much, much, much better.

My first piece of advice is go
out and get into classrooms, and

then my second piece of advice.

We'll just flow from what we talked about
already, which is to focus on instruction.

Your, your personal relationships with
teachers matter, pretty much to the same

extent, and I'm stealing something you've
said before to me, pretty much to the

same extent as a personal relationship
with your doctor matters, Really, you've

gotta, you've gotta forge a, professional
relationship in what you're talking

about, the object of your coaching.

Is instruction.

It's not, the object of her
coaching is not a relationship.

and that's, my view on it.

And I think I've been pretty
successful with looking at it that way.

I think people take you more seriously
when you focus on instruction.

They think you're more credible
because you, care about the main thing.

It's in your job title and that's what
you're showing them that you care about.

Alright.

Zach, As always, it's always
a joy, talking to you.

It's always fun.

Anything else?

Any final thoughts?

Oh, you know what, I don't know if this
is too early to do this, but, do you

have a book coming out at some point?

Yes.

we're at the, we're at the stage
in the book, editing process where

they're showing me, front page
graphics, asking for the, the inside

cover bio and all of that stuff.

it is about explanations titled to
Be Determined, but I like the title.

just Tell Them Right in a book.

I'd like it too.

A book.

A book that is about.

How to tell and more.

More than just, I think it's just to
be cheeky that it's just tell them

because it's about how to explain stuff
and explain stuff well, and so many,

teachers that I have talked to feel I.

it's not their job to convey the
content, to bring the content

to the student personally.

They would rather ask a lot of
leading questions, a guess what's

in my head game with the students.

And it leads to, disengaged students,
first of all because they're confused

and they don't know what's going on.

And it also just depro,
professionalizes the teacher.

I think the teacher is the expert.

The teacher needs to love what they
teach and they need to get really good at

bringing it to the students personally,

and, I believe it.

Just to piggyback on that, I believe it
takes the adult to mediate the content

because, it looks real simple in the
standards, but it's very sophisticated

material that kids need to know and.

Going back to cliches
and, edgy speak buzzwords.

One of those buzzwords that
I hear is, student centered.

And when I hear a word like that, I always
ask the person who said, what do you mean?

What do you mean?

And so many times what the teacher
means was instead of me telling them,

I'm gonna give them some questions and
they're gonna find it in the textbook.

so to me, that's just not,

you're diminishing yourself as a teacher.

because that's sophisticated material.

If all the, your second grade students in
Vietnam, you could ask them a question and

they could find the answer in the text.

It's not about that.

It's being able to understand
the nuances and, everything.

So I like it.

Just tell 'em.

Yeah.

And, I, can't remember whose quote it is,
but, Some chief justice who was always

quoted, but he talked about simplicity
on the other side of complexity, and

I think that's what that sounds like,
what your book is gonna be about.

Anything else, we should know about?

As you say, where can we find you on
socials and where do you wanna be found?

Yeah, I encourage the audience to reach
out to me through the contact page of my

website, which is education rickshaw.com.

I named it that education rickshaw.com
because I was living in Sudan at the

time, and there were just a million.

Little rickshaws, yellow rickshaws all
over the city of cartoon, a And so you

can go to that website and you can click
and you can contact me through there.

And what a lot of people like to
do is they like to ask me about,

how do I find this research?

Or what is, what articles should
I read or maybe they're interested

in, hiring me for training.

that's where you go.

And also the other thing is to.

Check out my podcast
progressively incorrect.

Especially if you, listen to
this and you go, my school is

really loving this inquiry stuff.

I've just been hiding.

I've been closing my door and teaching
explicitly, and, I'd love to listen

to something that actually talks about
what I know to be, good for kids.

that's my po that's what my podcast
is about, progressively incorrect.

Alright, terrific.

And that will be in the show notes.

Everybody, you'll be able to,
find that and reference that.

Zach, as always, it's a pleasure.

Thank you Jean.

Alright, talk to you soon.