Better Teaching: Only Stuff That Works

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Gene Tavernetti: Welcome to Better Teaching, Only Stuff That Works, a podcast for teachers, instructional coaches, administrators, and anyone else who supports teachers in the classroom. This show is a proud member of the BE Podcast Network, shows that help you go beyond education. Find all our shows in the BE Podcast Network.

Podcast network.com. I'm Gene Tavernetti, the host for this podcast. My goal for this episode, like all episodes, is that you laugh at least once and that you leave with an actionable idea for better teaching. The quick reminder, no cliches, no buzzwords, only stuff that works. I am very excited today to have as my guest, Holly Corby.

Holly's an education journalist and author focused on teaching and learning. Her work has appeared everywhere from the New York Times and Washington Post to the 74, the Heckinger [00:01:00] Report, and Edutopia. She writes a sub stack about the science of learning called The Bell Ringer, which is published twice weekly.

This week she talks about How talking to parents, how teachers can talk to parents about the science of learning on parent night. Holly lives in Nashville, Tennessee with her family, and I am so happy to have her with us today. Hi, Holly.

Holly Korbey: Hi, Gene. Thanks for having me.

Gene Tavernetti: Gosh, gosh, my pleasure. First of all, I need to, I need to ask you this. I know that you have a background, you know, in your first life, you were a performer, you were in the theater. And now you're a journalist. So what motivated you what excited you about devoting a part of your life to reporting on the science of learning and the science of math?

Holly Korbey: Yeah, I mean, so there are a few things. I mean, I have always been really into learning. I was one of those incredibly nerdy kids who, like, loved [00:02:00] school. And I thought teachers were cool. And, you know, and they considered, you know, I was always one of the smart kids, you know, like I always did my homework and did it really well.

And so, like, I've always held a really high value on school. My father taught. Eighth grade social studies for 40 years at the same school. So that has always been in my background and I mean, I love the arts, I love acting and performing, but I wrote a story when my oldest son went to kindergarten and about Holding him back from kindergarten and whether or not to do that.

And it went viral. And I ended up on 60 minutes about this story. And that's how my journalism career got launched because I just started getting super curious about what was going on in classrooms and this. This thing that I had so much romanticism for, you know, I wanted to understand how it [00:03:00] worked.

Gene Tavernetti: Oh, that's great. And I think that that brings a lot of passion to a lot of people who begin looking at what goes on in education, because there is such a personal connection, you know, an investment, you know, here's my kid. And, and it's interesting that there are a lot of people like you, who don't just talk about it, they do something, and they go out and they let, let people know to quite a phrase.

At any rate, so you talk to people all over the country. Now, have you found any differences in regions around the country to how they think about education, how they think about teaching, the science of learning, how acceptable it is?

Holly Korbey: Yeah, I mean this is such a good question because I do get to talk to teachers in all different kinds of settings and principals and different, and different regions of the country and, and thinking about that and, you know, people always say, oh well our, The country is so huge and each state has its own education [00:04:00] system and its own, but I'm going to tell you that like I've been doing this reporting on teaching and learning for like 15 years and just looking at the big picture view, I am more convinced than not that like The challenges that we face, at least in the teaching and learning department, are more the same than they are different.

You know, teaching kids to read, that's an issue that has been going on in every single state. And even though states are responding to that issue differently, the issue's the same. Is that we could be doing a better job, you know, getting more kids to be fluent readers. And I think the exact same thing is true.

With math, you know, with math instruction issues, you've got these kind of extreme outliers, you know, I'm sure that you've read about, you know, the San Francisco, you know, math debacle in the California math system, but those are extreme outliers. I think that overall, the issues are, are remarkably Absolutely.

similar. You know, if you like smush all these [00:05:00] schools together, you know, teacher training is an issue everywhere. The curriculum that schools are using and how to evaluate it and how to use it are, are, are the same. How we screen kids to figure out what they know and what they don't know and how to fill those gaps, the same.

Gene Tavernetti: So, you've talked to a lot of teachers, you've talked to a lot of folks. One of the things that is interesting is, because I've worked in schools across the country as well, and I agree, I mean, you go into a school and they'll say, well, you don't know about us. You know, we're different. Ah, pretty, pretty much, pretty much the same, you know, but I, you know, I'll give you that.

I'm going to look around for a little bit before we talk. But the thing that is interesting, it's, I don't know if this is, I'm going to, I'm going to try to smash a line. Is it from maybe it's a Anna Karina, Anna Karina? Say that for

Holly Korbey: Anna Karenina, yeah,

Gene Tavernetti: Okay. Okay. Okay. You know, the line about all happy families are happy the same, [00:06:00] but sad families are, you know, they all have their different self.

I think it's, I think it's just the opposite in schools. All good schools are different. All good schools are, are good in their own way. And all bad schools are bad the same. And bad is a very, that's not a very research based academic term, but I think everybody knows what we're talking about.

But one thing that's interesting that I have found. is that regardless of the performance of the school and however you you want to judge that, that it's it's like you're congressman. You don't like congress but you love your congressman. You don't like education but my school's doing a good job. And one of the interesting things about schools that I know that they have become better at is PR. You know, they're they're on social media and Do you find that, I guess my, my question for you is, do you find a disconnect in what you actually see in schools versus what's [00:07:00] reported?

Holly Korbey: Yeah, so I, I, you know, in my own pace, like, just speaking for myself, gosh, I hope not, like, I hope that's not the case, I feel like I'm doing my darndest to try to report what's actually happening on the ground, and so because of that, I get all of my story ideas, and I can say this, like, this is a reported fact, I get 97 percent of my story ideas I've seen so many videos from teachers and principals and talking to researchers and, and sometimes, you know, my own kids classrooms like sorry, sorry, my son's teachers if you're listening.

That I go, I'm seeing something that's interesting I'm going to dig into that. But I do take your point that in the larger media that, you know, there are a lot of stories that you wonder if that came from a press release and not from someone's lived experience. But I [00:08:00] hope that what I try to do is get on the ground, talk to people, and try to understand the nuances of the issue.

And of course, this isn't going to make it to everybody, because schools are so different, you know? And so, a lot of times, the emails I get, or the comments I get in my DMs on Twitter are like, Well, that's not what, you know, that's not what my principal did, you know? My principal did this. Which is totally valid, I know!

You know, like, as a reporter, I'm trying to distill these huge issues and try to, you know, say, okay, well, here's one example of what I think is part of a bigger picture. Do you see PR taking over education reporting? Like, does, does that feel real to you? And I kind of want to know, like, in what areas are you worried about it?

Gene Tavernetti: Well, I see, I'm just familiar with schools in certain geographic areas, and I see that there's just a lot of social media posts [00:09:00] and celebrations of, you know, our scholars this and our scholars that, and then I look and see their test scores and it's, you know, that's nice, you're doing all these things, but But it's just a little, a little much for me, because I, I am really a results type guy.

Believe it or not, I'm not a real cutesy guy, you know, I'm not a, so,

Holly Korbey: Yeah, and those social media, like, I really, I get that schools want to form a relationship with families. And that is so cool, and so important, and, but I also really want part of that relationship to be, and like, that's part of the post that I'm publishing today about Parent Night. Part of that relationship should be based on learning, and that, the part of the, we should come together and be more concerned about has, has the child learned what we're teaching them, you know, like I, that I do think that there should be more emphasis on that.

It's kind of, that's why I get up in the morning, Jane.

Gene Tavernetti: [00:10:00] yeah, well, and, and that relates right back to what you've been reporting on science of learning, science of math, and I have, I talk to a lot of people and they say, you know what, if the teacher's just new, If the teachers just knew about this stuff, because you already mentioned, you know, teacher training programs, teacher prep programs, a lot of it is not delivered.

Well, I have a little bit of contrary view about that as I talk to people. And my belief is that knowing research isn't enough, you know, that, that there's kind of two ways of knowing. There is an intellectual way of knowing, and then there's an emotional way of knowing. If you want to convince somebody to change their behavior, they have to know it emotionally.

And, and, and an example that, that I always use is that if all we needed to know if all people, if they only just needed to know about good nutrition and exercise, then they Everybody'd be at the gym, everybody'd be eating [00:11:00] well, but they don't need one more article, you know, that we know, we know the research.

So, um, in fact, for the last 50 years, every time a new program has been introduced, you know why it's been introduced? Because it's research based, it's evidence based, and then the next one comes along, and the teachers I, I don't know, what do you, what

Holly Korbey: They're exhausted

Gene Tavernetti: Yeah, yeah.

Holly Korbey: exhausted from all this and you know, this is just such an interesting thing to think about, you know, I'm, I was kind of prepared at the beginning of your question to like push back a little on that because. I do think that knowing some of the basic science of how we learn, it's not a silver bullet to like improving schools, but it is really important to know, and I think that a lot of the public doesn't know it.

And so that, that part, I do think it is important if we had a bigger shared knowledge base, you know, like, but the words research informed and, you know, championing [00:12:00] effective programs, of course, that is, you know, they've said that about everything, but what I, here's what I do think, is that, you know, that, Our thinking is supposed to evolve over time, you know, and that when we know better and we know more and the research, you know, shows us something different, then we do better.

And I have a really, what I think is a really good example. So women my age, are being told something totally different about, in medicine, about like taking hormones, you know, in their like perimenopause, menopause transition. So 10 years ago, they said absolutely don't take them. It's very harmful. It raises your cancer risk.

Well, new science has shown that that's not exactly true, that there actually are some benefits to taking those hormones. So doctors and medicine in general, they are. updating their practices based on the latest understanding of science. And so I do think that [00:13:00] there's room for that in education too, that we just update our thinking.

I get it. My dad was a teacher. He talked about this all the time that every year he would be like, I grew up in Indiana. He would say some professor from IU would come in in the first week for PD and this was the latest thing they were going to do research shows. And my dad, who had been teaching for a long time, just said he eventually said, Thank you so much for your hard work.

And he went back in his classroom and did what worked. So, I really, I get what you're saying. At the same time, I feel like we're on the edge of kind of like, a greater understanding of how we learn. Do you think that? Do you see that or no?

Gene Tavernetti: I do. I don't. And if you if this was my implication, it's, I didn't mean it, that the research wasn't important. I'm just saying that I don't think that that's the, the convincing He's that's going to get a teacher to do something differently, [00:14:00] because I am, I am really involved in the implementation of things, you know, if there's an idea, and I want to believe that all the ideas that I share that I want implemented are good ideas, and most of them are research based, but I never mentioned research, you know, because a lay person could go into a classroom and watch a good teacher who's using all the evidence based practices and walk out and say that's a good teacher without ever being able to identify those evidence based practices.

And so, I don't know the answer, but I, but I just know that some people are convinced, say, oh, this is a research, try it. And others are not. And just like in politics, we're on, we're in these little silos. And, you know, how do we get that across? Because there are people I know who walk into a PD and the teachers, you know, will be trying to [00:15:00] hide, saying, Oh, I know they're going to talk about retrieval practice.

I know they're going to, you know, and they just don't want to hear it again. You know, and then there are people, the techie people. And you always know the, the teachers who are techies because they have all the stickers on their computers. But, but you have to reach all of those people if we want to make an impact school wide.

And I wish I, I wish I had the answer to that.

Holly Korbey: sounds like, well, so, or, is what you're saying, it sounds like what you're saying is that a lot of times the proof is in the pudding more, like, by you showing them, hey, try this, and then them seeing that it works, is that a more effective way?

Gene Tavernetti: That's the emotional component of learning. Okay I, I can't, I can't tell them I can't tell you the number of experienced teachers who I've worked with who would never admit that I had any influence on what they did, but I could walk in their classroom later and they would be implementing things we talked about, and I'm fine with that.

[00:16:00] I am absolutely, I'm absolutely fine with that, but it is that, it is that type of experience, and that's why, you know, I know you're familiar with Rosenshine, And so one of the reasons that I am enamored with Rosenshine's principles is he states he got these from watching good teachers and so that's important.

That's important to me.

Holly Korbey: And at the same time, I really don't want so many teachers who I talk to wandered their way into effectiveness. And I think that that is also. Also bad that you take so many years to figure out what is working, you know what I mean that it like I don't the temptation is to, you know, to hand them a set of principles, you know, or whatever, and say, no, no, no, do this.

The research says it. I mean, you know, you know what I'm saying?

Gene Tavernetti: I know. I know exactly what you're saying. And, you know, and I think that's one of the [00:17:00] things That I wonder not only in classrooms, but I wonder in school districts. I live, I live in California in Fresno County. Fresno County, I don't know, it might be totally, the total population may be 2 million. I don't know.

There are 36 school districts. in Fresno County. There, Fresno County is the largest, it's the fourth largest district in California. I think they have over 80, 000 students. So you see the the distribution, the average, I mean we've got tiny school districts. And you know why we have tiny school districts?

Because we live in America and, you know, this school board, nobody's going to tell us how to teach. And I went to school and this is what, this is what we're going to do. And so I think that that gets in the way. I mean, we hear about comparing ourselves to other countries and other countries. Well, this is our national curriculum.

This is what we [00:18:00] do. Well, criminy, I think, you know, part of the reason people get voted out of office is because they wanted a common goal. Standards for the US.

Holly Korbey: Right. Yeah, I mean, that is just, you know, we, that's crazy. I mean, here in Tennessee, you know, I live in Metro Nashville, and the Metro Nashville School District has, you know, one district has 75, 000 kids in it. And so how different Is that from, from what you're talking about? Because we have kids who go to schools that are extremely well funded.

They're almost like private schools, right, in the district. And then we have some of the poorest schools. Serving the, you know, the most disadvantaged students in the whole state, and we're in the same district. And so, the district is always at odds with itself. That, because the, you know, the things that they're trying to do, the [00:19:00] policies they have to enact district wide, end up making no one happy.

Because they're serving five people. Thousand different kinds of kids

Gene Tavernetti: I think the good news. It's good news. Bad news. The bad news is what you just described. The good news. The good news is in a district that big. You don't have people implementing what they're supposed to be. It doesn't happen. I mean, and that's another thing that's interesting about reading about schools is it's so easy to get, you know, as a, someone in the public, Just getting so upset about these are the standards.

That's what they're teaching. That's it. You know what? No, they're not. Don't worry. It's not happening. If all we again, if all we needed to do was to change the standards, we wouldn't have any issues. So, Oh I don't know. I heard her read somewhere. I heard you say, and this is as it pertains to math.

in particular, [00:20:00] that, that one of the things that we need to make, that could make math better, is if the teachers had more autonomy. And in choosing the curriculum and choosing methods, and I'm, I want to hear what you have to say about that, but of course I'm going to give you my opinion first.

Holly Korbey: Yeah. I mean, I'm not sure that that's exactly what I said Because what I have learned through these six or seven stories that I have done about math and I have more coming I'm spending a lot of time learning and talking about math. And that What I have seen is that there are some big flaws in very large parts of the system.

And one of them is curriculum. And that, I was just talking with a math educator and consultant this morning about this. Because a lot of the curriculum doesn't do the full job. It seems like that they're [00:21:00] swinging wildly between, you know, extreme procedural methods to, you know, extreme conceptual methods, then they don't get enough practice.

There isn't, there's a lack of screeners. There's a lack of teachers being able to screen kids and understand where their gaps are. And so, a lot of what teachers end up doing, here's, here's my on the ground reporting,

Gene Tavernetti: Okay, okay,

Holly Korbey: The reality is, teachers go online. And there's a lot of data to support this.

Teachers go online to try to fill in the gaps, because they've been given these, you know, sometimes these so called high quality instructional materials, but 50 percent of their 5th grade class, can't do this stuff. They're not ready for it. They have massive gaps in foundational skills. So teachers are trying to You know, have fidelity to the curriculum, which they are required to do, and also try to help kids [00:22:00] reach proficiency so they can do that curriculum.

So I think when I was talking about teacher autonomy, what I was talking about is teachers who have the kind of judgment to make those decisions, which is what they're doing all day, every day. So, what do you think about that?

Gene Tavernetti: well, I think it's like all of life. It's a paradox. Okay, and here's the paradox. We started this conversation saying only if the teachers do more about the science of learning and the science of math. So it's so before. I would make any decision about curriculum, about, about interventions. I would want to know, let's go look at the instruction first.

Like that's, like that's a baseline level of experience. And I, I, I kind of, I have compared it to you go to college and you want to major in Chemistry. Doesn't, you don't get to [00:23:00] do chemistry until you do your general ed requirements. And so, and so I think, you know, you want to have an, you want to have an opinion on this, Holly?

Great. We're going to have, we're going to go watch instruction. And, and I think that applies to math. It applies to our system of how kids get into special ed. You know, there's always, there are always more teachers who have the highest proportion of kids referred to special ed. Is, is,

Holly Korbey: Right?

Gene Tavernetti: How peculiar is that?

So I think there needs to be a baseline. And again, getting back to how we feel about teachers closing their doors. I have third grade teachers talking to me about academic freedom, and I'm thinking, I don't think that that's really what they, what they meant, you know, with regards to academic freedom. But But so anyway, that, that's, that's what I, that's why it's so hard to turn things over to teachers, that's why, somebody will ask me, well, what do you think about education, [00:24:00] Gene?

I said, well, it is so much better than you think. think it is. I mean, there is wonderful stuff going on, and it is more miserable than you can imagine, and those are in classrooms that are next door to each other. And, and so you just, you just don't know. So,

Holly Korbey: also, you know, it's like it's right and it also depends on like what your boss is is telling you, you know, like what each individual principal think is thinks is important, you know, like so. So the district's implements a policy that we're going to do this high quality math curriculum and but like. Is, does your principal ignore it or do they try to implement it?

Like, how seriously do they take those high quality instructional materials? Did the school have the resources to buy the teachers all the materials they needed? To, to do, you know, to roll it out? Did they get a waiver? Did they get a waiver so they could do some, do their own thing? Do something totally different this year and they'll start it next year?

Like, that stuff [00:25:00] all matters.

Gene Tavernetti: yeah, it, it does. You know what, you have, it's, it's, the reason that I wanted to talk to you, besides that I knew that it would be fun is that you know, I have learned. When I watch political shows, I, I, I watch a lot of political TV. I want to listen to the journalists. You know, I don't want to listen to the politicians because the journalists have been out there.

Do they know as much? Like, like, you know, I've listened to you. I've read your stuff. I know, you know a lot. Okay. But it's, but you get to report on it from a distance. You don't have that emotional, that emotional PR that we, that we talked, that we talked about earlier. So, I got to ask you this. Go ahead.

I'm sorry. You were going to say something.

Holly Korbey: No, no, no, no, no. I mean, thank you for saying that. This is really, this is very important to me. I want people to know, like, I am not, the only thing I'm an advocate for is that the public should know what is, A, what is going on in schools, and [00:26:00] B, that there is scientific research that is kind of informing that stuff.

That is very important to me. That, that is our civic responsibility is to tell the public what we know. So please, go on with your question.

Gene Tavernetti: Well, and to, and to talk to them again in a way that they understand because their context, their schema is when they went to school

Holly Korbey: Totally.

Gene Tavernetti: and it's, it's, it's, it's real hard. I, I got to ask you this. I mean, you've you have talked to a lot of people. What's the weirdest thing you've ever seen that learned about that

Holly Korbey: man. Oh man, there have been so many weird things that I should not say but I think that overall, the weirdest thing that, that I see again and again, that I don't understand, is that schools feel like they're trying to do too much. And that is weird to me. It [00:27:00] feels like they are, They're like, well, we got to, we got to fit this in because we got, we got to do 15 minutes of, of homeroom and we got to do the 20 seconds of social emotional and we got to check in with, we got to do the check ins and check outs and then we got to, and there's all this stuff that is frankly making the adults in the building crazy.

And I find that very strange. So when I come in off the street, that you think of schools as this, you know, like I said, I've got this romanticized idea that this is where we're going to hand the next generation the keys to the kingdom, but you go into a second grade class and you're like, time to go to the dentist, Miguel, please report to the office, you know, like that there's just so much happening that is outside the realm of like learning to read and do math that you know, it shatters your illusions really quickly.

Gene Tavernetti: Yes, you know, and there is. The other [00:28:00] thing that I found that I've been battling my whole career is the educational industrial complex. I mean, there is, I don't know where it happens, Holly, I don't know where it happens, but I travel, you know, I'd be working in schools throughout California, and I'd be in the principal's office, and I'm nosy, like, like right now, I'm trying to look at the titles of all your books, you know, so I would be waiting for the principal, and I'll be darned if the same title was on every principal's bookshelf, and I'm wondering, how did that happen?

You know, I, I know Catholics have a pope that make You know, these proclamations, but I don't know where it happens in education. You know, I'll give you an example of one that I'm sure it was nationwide, but more familiar, most familiar with California, is that some research came out, whatever that, I'm, I don't do air quotes, but I'm doing air quotes.

Research came out about the effectiveness of coaches in [00:29:00] California. Everybody hired coaches. Everybody hired coaches. I went to a district to train their coaches. They had 30 coaches the first year. I went back after a few months after my initial meeting with them. They were down to 15 because nobody knew what they were supposed to do.

And the next year they were down to six. So same thing happened. You know, I, I see that the social emotional learning is, is another one.

Holly Korbey: Yeah.

It is, you know, it's, it's interesting to think about it. So when Tennessee did their reading overhaul a few years ago, the Reading 360 program is a science of reading program that they trained all, you know, elementary school teachers in the science of reading. It was, you know, from my extremely skeptical viewpoint, I think they did a pretty good job.

But the way they explained it to teachers was, this is not a checklist. This is a framework for [00:30:00] thinking about the things you do in the classroom. This is a framework. And so often, I mean, like what you're describing, you know, with the coaches and the researchers, I think that we're operating from such a deficit mindset that we are looking for that silver bullet and it's, it's a, it's a desperation.

Because every, I have not yet met someone who works in a school who doesn't want to do right by kids. I just haven't, that doesn't exist. And so that silver bullet, that checklist mindset sometimes drives decisions that are very strange and don't make any sense, like hiring 30 coaches when you're not even sure what they're going to do, you know, and, and so flipping, flipping that is just like, it's kind of like my obsession.

You know, it's the thing I fall asleep thinking about. Is flipping that, like, that, that the science, the research is a framework, it's a foundation to stand on, it's a [00:31:00] foundation to build the house on. Is that how you think about it?

Gene Tavernetti: and then it's operationalized. It's, it's, darn, I'm going to use a cliche. I'm going to use a cliche. It's the art. It's the art and science. You have the science of learning and then the artistry of the teacher, the individual. You want the, you know, when the teacher gets hired, they're hired for who they are.

They're hired for their skills, but they're hired for who they are. And so they want, they the administration wants that person to be there. So, so how can we get that person operationalizing this framework? You know, and to me, because of my bias, I think coaches can, can do that. Have you, have you have you read into controversy about.

Holly Korbey: No, and I mean, I, I end up doing some reporting where I end up talking to a lot of coaches because a lot of times they're giving, like, instructional [00:32:00] techniques to the teachers. But as far as, like, the research on coaching itself, I do not know enough to speak. So tell, so you'll have to tell me.

Gene Tavernetti: I'm going to throw it back because when you find some research, I've only been coaching for 20 years. I started doing instructional coaching before they even called it instructional coaching. We just, we do support, you know, we're going to train you. We're going to provide support. And then four or five years later, instructional coaches became a thing.

Everybody had one. But the research on it, I mean, there, you know, you talk about the science of learning and, and the war about the science of learning. There's a big controversy about how to coach, how to provide coaching. So, when you ever decide to get into that, I would love to talk to you about, you know, give my, my opinion on that.

And

Holly Korbey: future stories to come.

Gene Tavernetti: So anyway, let me, let me, let me know, [00:33:00] because everybody's, it's, there are some things that are just common sense, you know, if you have a mentor, I mean, in the Middle Ages, there, you were an apprentice, you had a one on one relationship with somebody, it just makes sense. So, I don't know what the research will say.

I'm sure that the effectiveness of the research is going to vary a lot because there's no agreed upon structure for how coaching should occur the skills, the skills involved. So, again, it's, there's a lot of, there's a lot of art to it, but I would love, love to talk to you about it sometime.

Holly Korbey: Yeah, sure. And I mean, I'm sure that it's kind of like, it's a, there's a lot of like, reflectiveness going on because the teachers, the instructional coaches are teaching the teachers and the teachers are teaching the students. So there's a lot of, teaching techniques involved. You know, it's kind of, nesting dolls.

Gene Tavernetti: Yeah, it's, it's across, it's across between, um, The instruction, you know, having to know instruction, [00:34:00] but being an effective communicator. And I'm, and I hate to even say this because this is part of the controversy is you know, I was trained as a counselor. And so I bring some counseling skills and some communication skills, but I am not a counselor.

I'm an instructional coach, but that's, that's the overlap in some in some of the skills. Because, again, it doesn't matter what you know the teacher has to, has to feel it, has to, has to buy into it emotionally. So,

Holly Korbey: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's, you know, and that's the whole, that's the whole game, right? Like my boys, two of my three boys are serious athletes and play a lot of sports. And so, you know, you watch a lot of coaches. I have watched a lot of coaches and it's interesting to me to figure out who's Who are the successful ones and why?

You know, like that is like one of my little side hobbies is I love trying to figure out how they communicate ideas really clearly, [00:35:00] but how they keep the big picture in mind, how they keep the whole Enchilada.

Gene Tavernetti: Okay, you've been all over, you've talked to everybody I'm going to promote you to, I was going to say Queen, there might be another title that you would prefer. What, what advice would you give based on what you've seen, if there's any particular advice to give? people in classrooms, running the schools, policy makers.

Holly Korbey: Boy, I am not in any position to be giving anyone any advice. You know, I'm always the person who comes into the building and just asks a ton of questions, and then when you're exhausted, I'm going to email you a few more questions. You know, I feel like I'm trying to learn, but there is, there are a couple of things that really bother me and that I, I see over and over again, and one of them is simplifying.

I, I know that schools [00:36:00] are tying themselves into knots, trying to follow all the district policies and state policies and all the protocols. But the school, especially elementary schools, it feels like they need to be simplified. They, we need to get down to the very basics. Basic stuff and not let kids go until we know they've got a grasp on reading and math.

That is just something I, I think about all the time.

Gene Tavernetti: Have you, okay,

Holly Korbey: go ahead.

Gene Tavernetti: that was, so let me rephrase my question. Have you seen it anywhere? You don't need to name names, but have you seen where they have had that focus and the teachers have been able to simplify things?

Holly Korbey: Yes, I have seen it and it's, you know, and now that you're saying that, I feel like these schools have a couple of conditions. In that they, the where I have seen it work best, they are K 8 schools. And they are, they don't let [00:37:00] those kids go after fourth or fifth grade. They see them all the way to high school, and so there's a different mindset.

There's like a, a long term mindset that I think is extremely helpful to kids. Because they graduate those kids, and so there's, it's more of a long term project than third grade reading scores. Does that make sense?

Gene Tavernetti: It makes sense. I have a lot of experience with K 8, and it's not only what you described, but the parents will select that for kids because they know if they are on campus, if their 8th grader is on campus with a 5 year old, they're going to come out a different type of teenager. They are softer, and everybody benefits.

So I,

Holly Korbey: a whole other podcast, Jean. I could talk about this forever because I, I, I chose that for my own kids and you are 100 percent correct, [00:38:00] but even if you're only talking about the instructional side, if we're only talking about academics. When this same school that takes a kid in at kindergarten and teaches them to read and then sees them graduate and they are responsible for sending them off to high school, I see a stronger through line. They are following that kid and that those kids, those are the schools that I have seen who are doing the basics well.

Gene Tavernetti: And again, as I ask you all of these questions, I am just asking your opinion based on the fact that you have done this reporting and you have done this, because I'm, I know you're not an educational researcher, but I believe, like, learning Or I believe teaching is a natural, it's a natural thing. And effective teaching.

We could watch parents just as we could watch effective teachers and backfill and say, Oh, look, these are all the science of learning things. Parents do the same thing [00:39:00] naturally. They teach your kids to tie a shoe, to ride a bike, all of these things. And, and what do we do? We complicate it. There we go.

We, we, we make it, we make it over complicated.

Holly Korbey: Absolutely. My, my friend, I don't know if you know Robert Pondichio, who

Gene Tavernetti: Just, just from Twitter,

Holly Korbey: Yeah, so he has written several stories and essays about that we ask too much of teachers, that we treat them like superheroes, and that, that is a, that is a burden on them, that they, that normal, regular, everyday people can't be this superhuman thing, that we're, we're putting too much on them.

If we could take away less, and I mean, I, I kind of sense that's what you're saying about like, teaching is a natural thing. We're making, we're putting too much on people then they could be more effective in the things that really matter. And I think that a lot of [00:40:00] our arguments in, in education are about what matters.

Because it, to me, there are only a few things, there are only a few things that really matter.

Gene Tavernetti: Ali. Ah, gosh. Anything else? Is there something I should have asked you or anything that we were talking about something before we started recording and we said we save it. Did, did we talk about it? I don't even remember what it was.

Holly Korbey: It's the, like, one of my favorite things to talk about. Witches. Are after school activities a model that we can look at to use in academic classes? And I mean, you just brought up, you know, sports, and theater, and band, and orchestra, and are the, the, the way kids learn in there? The same way, or there are lessons we can draw and, and use them in math class and history class.

And you know, you made this amazing statement, which is so true, which is there is an explicit instruction portion of that for sure. You have to learn how to throw a football. You have to learn how to [00:41:00] be a goalie in soccer or whatever, or your scales on the violin. But it is in service of this larger project.

It is project based learning, and I just love that. That's exactly That's exactly the way to think of it. And I don't, you know, I think there are some parallels to academic learning.

Gene Tavernetti: I think, I just think it is so natural and we, we just made it so complicated. And I'm going to blame, I'm going to blame publishers. I'm going to blame, you know, all of these, all of these folks that, um, you know, anytime you put some letters after somebody's name, it's going to be complicated, they're going to, they're going to complicate it.

And as a person who has some of those letters. I try my best. It goes into, it's, it's in line with my philosophy of no cliches and no buzzwords. I try to, I try to be as clear, as clear as I can. Holly it was a, it was a pleasure, and just a reminder, and we'll put this in, in our show notes as well, the bell [00:42:00] ringer, Substack, is at hollycorby.

substack. com. Backwards slash, is that correct? Okay. Okay. And again, reading this week she's sharing with teachers how to talk to parents about science of learning at back to school night. Holly, it's been a joy.

Holly Korbey: Same. Thank you so much for having, these were really good questions and you really made, you made me think. I wrote some things down, Jane.

Gene Tavernetti: All right. Thank you, Holly.

Holly Korbey: Thanks.

Gene Tavernetti: If you are enjoying these podcasts, please give us a five star rating on Apple Podcasts, and you can find me on Twitter, x at G Tabernetti, and on my website, tesscg. com, that's T E S S C G dot com, where you'll get information about how to order my books, teach fast, focused, adaptable, structured teaching, and maximizing the impact of coaching cycles.

Thank you for listening. We'll talk to you soon [00:43:00]