Better Teaching: Only Stuff That Works

[00:00:00] Welcome to Better Teaching, Only Stuff That Works, a podcast for teachers, instructional coaches, administrators, and anyone else who supports teachers in the classroom. This show is a proud member of the BE Podcast Network shows that help you go beyond education. Find all our shows@bepodcastnetwork.com. I Am Gene Tavernetti, the host for this podcast. And my goal for this episode, like all episodes, is that you laugh at least once and that you leave with an actionable idea for better teaching. A quick reminder, no cliches, no buzzwords. Only stuff that works My guest this morning is Dr. Jana Lee, the executive director and founder of John Ali Consulting. With over 15 years of experience, Dr. Lee has become a trusted partner to school communities across the nation, specializing in data [00:01:00] driven systems, targeted interventions, and inclusive practices.

Her expertise extends from personalized coaching and professional development to delivering inspiring keynotes that empower educators and leaders to make a lasting impact. Jonna, welcome! Great to have you today.

I'm so excited to be here.

Well, Jonna and I'll tell you where Jonna and I met, and of course we had kind of cross paths on, on social media as people do, but it was at a conference recently and the name of her session, I think was data driven something.

Data driven Decisions by Design.

Data driven because you are the data. I mean, you really are known as the data person. And so, so I was with a friend. And well, we went to go see, and I have to tell you, I'm not excited about a lot of sessions, but, you know, I just met you and I go, I'm going to go, I'm going to go support my new [00:02:00] friend, and I'm thinking, I am not going to be interested in this data driven thing here, but you talk about it differently.

And you talk about it in a way that, okay, we connect it. so you're the data person. So, but how do you talk about data as opposed to other people kind of look at data in your mind?

I like to talk about it as this non scary concept that doesn't need to require more time, energy and resources. I like to think of it as almost formalizing what teachers and leaders are already doing in their practices and just drawing more attention to those moments of opportunity to collect data and then do something with it.

So many teachers can collect the data, but it's what happens next that often goes missing. And so I try to make it this very nonchalant kind of, Hey, listen, you're already doing it. We just have to [00:03:00] formalize this a little bit. You know, and with leaders, I really encourage them to take closer look at that microdata that's happening in the classroom so that they can best support their teachers and therefore best support students.

So I think that's, was the distinction that. Allowed me to be more opening to listening to you was the idea that you talked about microdata versus what other people think of data, how, when you first start talking about it, how do you find people are thinking about the data that they're looking at?

Right. I think that from a leadership perspective, oftentimes leaders look at what I call macro data. So those you know, performance assessments, state exams, diagnostics, benchmarks, overarchingly, you know, where are our students on the spectrum in terms of reading writing. And math.

And yes, leaders should be able to speak to that macro data, [00:04:00] but what gets lost are the opportunities to take a finer look at micro data. So even when, you're going to hear me say data and data, because now I have that in my mind, because we were talking before

And so that

this Even from a teacher perspective, teachers often look at benchmarks, and benchmark assessments, I would consider still an aspect of the overarching data that speaks to our student performance.

And what we don't take as fine of a look at is that micro assessment. I'm not even talking about formative assessment when I talk about micro, I'm talking about, The check for understanding. And that's where teachers are able to identify what is it, what skill or strategy is the student struggling with, and what am I going to do to ensure that I'm closing the gap as it relates to that.

Skill or strategy, right then and there, as opposed to waiting for time to go by having to [00:05:00] redo their lessons and modify their plans in order to catch those students up. It all happens within a lesson. And so when leaders begin to take a closer look at that micro data collection, then the macro data is not a surprise.

They know what to expect overarchingly because they have a pulse on What students are struggling with and their the areas of growth that are happening on the classroom on a regular everyday basis.

microdata, you're talking about checking for understanding, that is all the data, all the checking for understanding multiple times frequently during instruction, not, so, so there is, so, so some people call that what do they call it, responsive teaching, some people, I just call it teaching, you know, it's good it's just kind of, it's just kind of good teaching, but it presupposes something, and it presupposes that there is a lot of checking for understanding [00:06:00] to collect this.

And so when you are working with staffs, you're working and I know that you, your background was in special education do you have to do a lot of work with teachers to get them to actually collect that data to actually do some checking for understanding? Or not some, a lot?

So it's interesting, Jean, because so often they're already doing it, but we tend to see it not done in a way that fosters the immediate response. So, for example, let's set the scene. You've got a teacher who's who's got students in the room working independently on a task. What we tend to see is the teacher circulating and providing individualized feedback while students are working.

What I focus most on with teachers is getting them to kind of zip their lips while students are working and instead circulate [00:07:00] knowing what the teacher is looking for from the student. And in response to what they see, grab a small group of students to work on very explicitly on that skill or strategy or task as opposed to supporting the students while they're working.

When teachers are circulating and providing feedback, we tend to see teachers help students through the problem as opposed to supporting them with the skill that they're struggling in. So when we pull students in a small group, you're going to get, the teacher's going to get more time with those students and then be able to focus on the student.

So that students can go back to the table and still work independently, but with that reteach or remodel and closed learning gap that just happened in that targeted remediation. And I think the idea of pulling a small group while you've got a number of students in your [00:08:00] class is not necessarily explicitly taught in pre service training or taught.

to teachers nowadays. And so I do spend a lot of my time getting them to say, hey, listen, just because the curriculum doesn't say that you can pull a small group, it doesn't mean you can't pull a small group.

but yeah, it's I hadn't heard you say that before in that way, but I've heard me say that very in a very similar fashion. And one of the things I tell teachers as as they're walking around trying to help somebody is that there's nothing you could do in a minute. or 30 seconds to teach that student that skill.

The only thing you could do is what you just described is to help them do that problem, but that's not what you're after. And in addition to that, if you do spend the time that student needs, what's everybody else doing? So, so I think [00:09:00] the way you describe it is, you know, see what the data are, from it, from a number of students.

And then, yeah, then, because We, here's another thing that I want your opinion on that I tell people don't say that all students learn differently. No, they don't learn differently. They, you know, guess what? I just looked at the data and the dataset. I should pull a group because they all have the same issue.

What do you think about that? Especially in Ed, in, in special ed? What does instruction look like? You know?

Sure. So there's actually some research that came out recently over the last couple of years that shared that there's truly no such thing as like learning styles. So the idea that a student is a visual learner, the idea that a student is a tactile learner or kinesthetic or an auditory. We all learn in all of those ways.

So when we're supporting students, I try to work with [00:10:00] teachers around, try to get them out of thinking of students In a box in terms of, well, they're an auditory learner. So I'm going to provide this text through, you know, I'm going to also provide a the auditory tape recorded, if that's a thing, still tape recorded, but auditory version of the text, right?

Because they're an auditory learner. As opposed to saying, okay, pump the brakes a moment. Before we go ahead and provide all of these scaffolds and all this differentiation, I'm not saying don't do those things, but I'm saying how do we know that the student needs those things to access this particular skill strategy, objective, target, task, whatever you want to call it, right?

Let's keep that in our back pocket for when we need it. So, when we use the data, And we're able to identify whether it's through a turn and talk, whether it's through a quick comprehension question, whether it's problem number three on the math homework, on the math sheet, whatever that [00:11:00] check for understanding is, let's save the way in which we allow students to access the content.

based on who we see needs it. And so I think good instruction to your point earlier about it being responsive and teachers having to you know, recognize the gaps that students are facing. We need to be able to support students with where they're at. That productive struggle, that rigor, all of those buzzwords that we're hearing, that doesn't happen unless you've collected information on the student that lets you know that they need that auditory, you know, version of the tape in order to better understand and comprehend.

Okay. Let's back up a little bit. So that description of pulling a group that pulling a group, it's irrelevant what the [00:12:00] size, the initial size of the group is. You can have a group of seven in a, in California, we might call it special day class. I don't know what it's called. You know, where you work.

And I'm still pulling a group of three because every objective, every lesson, you can't predict how people are, you know, how the kids are going to do. It could be that, so that grouping is going to be fluid, what I'm trying to say.

Absolutely. And not to cut you off, Jean, but I think oftentimes we pull groups based on, I see teachers pulling groups based on preconceived notions, based on, they use it as a behavior management tool based on what they think the student knows, based on if the student has an IEP or not. And so when those are the ways that we're pulling groups, our groups tend to become homogeneous and not based on the skills or strategies that they truly are struggling with.

I call it catch and release. So I'm going to catch the students who need this support right now based on that check for [00:13:00] understanding, and then I'm going to give them another independent moment. to demonstrate their proficiency. Hopefully after that reteach or that remodel or the clarification, I'm going to release them and they're going to show that they can now work on that skill independently.

I'm going to hold on to the students who have not yet shown that independent proficiency. And so when we continuously catch and release, we're not using our preconceived notions or what we think our students are capable of as a means for or as the reason why we're pulling them into our small group.

Okay, so when we, so you just described how, We may not do that well. Create that group effectively, efficiently. How does that impact? And I know you work on MPSS with with schools. How does that impact? Does that influence a teacher? And who is going to go on to the, to level two instruction? Or

Yeah, I mean if you were [00:14:00] to look at MTSS, I think that there's two types of MTSS. that we see going on. There's MTSS, the pronoun, which is more the formalized approach to supporting students. So we're either pulling students out for intervention, or we have a push in model that's based on benchmark data that we're collecting.

But And while that's important, and we should have that, and especially with early intervention, what I think we're missing is the MTSS that can happen in the tier one or co taught classrooms. So what am I talking about? Tier two, if we look at our tiers, tier two would be pulling that small group.

Right? Within the within the tier one or the co taught classroom, tier three would be the one on one support that the students still need. So when we go back to catch and release, the longer you hold on to a student, the more so you shift to the tier three supports [00:15:00] until eventually you've collected enough support.

data and you're tracking it in a way to say, okay, I know when we get back to this skill or we get back to this standard, I'm going to immediately pull this student for a one on one or I know that this student needs some additional support with these, you know, set of skills because They still didn't understand it after working with them for some time in that one on one, you know, one on one setting in the classroom.

It can all happen in the classroom, but it requires teachers to be able to rework their curriculum, not change their curriculum, but be willing to take a lesson and say, okay how do I need to like a puzzle? How am I going to, you know, potentially rework some of the pieces of my lesson to ensure that students have.

I'm going to give you a number of minutes to explore the content independently, to collaborate, [00:16:00] to meet with me in that small group and independently showcase their proficiency. We're seeing right now, not to move this to, you know, student behaviors, but there, I don't go a single day without hearing from either a leader or a teacher that student behaviors are important.

Pre K, Kindergarten, yes in the secondary in terms of the anxiety and the dysregulation, but more so in those younger grades, student behaviors are wild. And so we need to look at how many minutes in that lesson do we have teachers standing up there and talking whole group instruction. We need to take a second look at that.

Why are you laughing? Do you, because

you know, I'm laughing because I agree. And it is so evident. One of the jokes I tell about this, you know, I, you know, we all know that kindergarten teachers teach on the carpet, right? The kids are on the carpet. And I said, here's what I want you to do. If you've never taught [00:17:00] kindergarten, go into a kindergarten classroom.

And as soon as the kids sit down, look at your watch. And in seven minutes, here's what every kindergarten teacher says. On your bottoms, crisscross applesauce hands to yourself. Why? Because they're done. They're done talking. And then all the behaviors manifest at that time. And I think that's why I was laughing because, yeah, I absolutely agree.

And you, and somebody asked me about the research, you know, about that recently, about how long is it? Just watch. Just look. They're telling you. I'm done.

I think there's a I think it's two minutes for every age, but even that I think is too long. You know, I think that we have to be able to look at the lessons and rework the lessons where students are engaging with the content and teachers are okay with pulling a small group to allow for targeted [00:18:00] Remediation, but again, that all comes down to that check for understanding and I'm still waiting for any of your listeners.

I'm still waiting for a curriculum that is explicitly says this is your check for understanding and then based on this I want you to do this for the students who got it, this for the students who almost got it, and these for this for the students who did not yet get it. I'm looking for the curriculum that has that outlined for teachers.

I don't know. Have you seen it, Jean?

I don't, you know, when I've worked with teachers, I haven't gone to the to what's the prescription, but what I have gone to is most teachers use some sort of whether it's a slide deck of some kind. And I said, And then I'll ask him, I said, what are they supposed to know at this point in the lesson to be able to continue?

And then I'll say, okay, great. Just put that in your slide. Because now you will never [00:19:00] forget to check for understanding, but if you don't put it there, that's the first thing you forget. And not only do you forget, and the other thing that I tell them about to check it for understanding, is that especially put those really good questions, you know, the right there questions you could think off the top of your head.

You know, what did we just do? What did you, that's easy. What's, what do you want them to be thinking about here? And then But I haven't seen that next step about what to do next, and I'm hoping that in the lesson design allows them to say, well, I need to go back here, or I need to continue or I'm putting this in my head for when I pull the small group. I don't,

I hope so too, and I haven't, I have not yet seen it. And you know, I think that we, the education has become accustomed to using the macro data pieces as the means for, Supporting our students whether it's [00:20:00] again through those specific interventions or, you know, for folks who are lucky enough to have a tutor you know, but what we're doing isn't working clearly because our, the achievement gap is widening.

And so the goal of the check for understanding is that before that gap widens, you're able to. To close it right then and there in the classroom, as opposed to being hamsters on a wheel where you constantly feel like you're having to catch up. I mean, I remember being in the classroom before I was ingrained in this practice of check for understanding.

I'd give an exit slip. I'd give the exit slip. I'd collect the exit slip. now I have to like, look at these things right and they would see the clipboard and then I would look at them I'd get really sad when like no one understood what I taught and then I'd be like,

now I have to go back and figure out when am I going to. reteach this, right? Or when am I going to support the seven students who didn't understand it, all based on the exit ticket? So, you [00:21:00] know, that's the, and that's what we're used to.

That's the game that we play in terms of assessing students on the spot and then having to find a time later to be able to close those gaps. And all we want to do, you know, I try to explain it as taking the exit ticket and just. Bump it up. Bump it up. Leave yourself some time to be able to support those students right then and there.

no, and I'm laughing again because I, you know, I've just said it a little bit differently. You know, they say the exit slip, we gotta do an next slip. You know what? Continue to do the exit slip, but don't be surprised. You should already know what's on the exit slip because you can't live your life. You can't plan your life.

based on what these eight year olds are going to tell you, you know, or 12 or 15 or whenever, you should already know, which is your point about collecting that, that data with the check for understanding.

And it requires teachers to be able to go in and look for three things. What am I looking for? [00:22:00] So what do my students know? Now, what am I going to do? That cycle of what am I looking for? So what do my students know? And now, what am I going to do based on that? And I try to try to support teachers in bringing that cycle to life in their lessons.

And to your point earlier, part of it, a non negotiable has to be them to identify what it is they're looking for, put it on a slide, put the question on the slide, that will allow them to you know, better chances in bringing it to life. Absolutely.

You're the data person. I might be calling you the micro data person from now on because those three questions, aren't those the same questions or the same type of questions that you're going to bring to a PLC?

That actually, when we talk about professional learning communities and we talk about teachers being able to engage in student artifacts and student work, teachers have to know what it is, what is the skill that we are looking to close [00:23:00] in order to know what to look at when it comes to digging into student artifacts.

I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've worked with a PLC, teachers have brought student work, let's just take a writing sample, even a paragraph. It is so easy to look at that paragraph and for a teacher's mind to just go running with all of the things. That could be possibly edited or revised or fixed in this paragraph.

And what ends up happening, teachers will provide feedback, whether it's on Google Document or in the notes. You think students are going back to that and being like, Okay, let me remember all of the things that, you know, Ms. Lee just told me that I needed to change. No way! So the PLC is a great time to say, okay, even though we want to fix this entire paragraph, we're looking at just relevant details.

And so when the ELA teacher is looking at relevant details, and the social studies teacher is looking at relevant details, and the [00:24:00] math teacher, because in math, students are now having to justify their responses, right? When the math teacher is ensuring that there's a detail to support the answer, same thing with the science teacher.

Collectively, that student is far more likely. to walk away within the next six to eight weeks having be far more likely to be able to provide relevant details because there's a consistency from classroom to classroom, from lesson to lesson. Everybody in that PLC has determined next steps to help support and close the gap of relevant details.

And so that consistency allows the student to automate the skill necessary to select relevant details. But it takes a professional learning community to know what to look for and to develop next steps cohesively and collectively, all based around a skill, in order to make that leap and bring it into the classroom to support student [00:25:00] gaps.

I'm sorry I keep smiling Johnna but it, Again, it goes back to micro being able to because that's all you can teach. You can't teach how to make the whole essay better. You can only teach a certain piece. Well, you can, you will over time, but today we need to focus on that certain skill.

Is that difficult? Cause I know you do a lot of work with PLCs. Is that difficult? Well, it's not only PLC work. It's going to be. It's going to relate to the MTSS, what skills that, you know, how are we going to teach these skills to the kids? Yeah, so,

all connected in terms of the PLC. I have found that a lot of it comes down. We cannot two things. We cannot make assumptions that teachers know how to do this work in their PLCs, right? We can't make assumptions that teachers know how to dig into data and you know, do a data dive. Simultaneously, [00:26:00] we need to ensure that the proper systems and procedures are in place so that PLC time is efficient, productive, and leads itself or lends itself to best next steps. As a leader, while a leader hopefully is not leading those PLCs, if the norms and expectations for before, during, and after a meeting are set and solidified, a leader should not be leading those PLCs, but instead is able to grab onto the PLC takeaways and ensure that it's coming into practice with the interventions and the MTSS supports.

So the two work harmoniously When everybody is on the same page and the systems are in place for communication, for agenda and next step setting. I mean, even as far as setting up a a Google folder where the leader can slide in there and see what are the PLCs working on. [00:27:00] What are their established next steps?

What skills are we looking at? And how can I, as a leader, whether it's MTSS work, whether it's walk through feedback, right? Whether it's one on one conversations with teachers, how can I support this work to not only strengthen the PLC, but also strengthen classroom practice. And when teachers begin to see the thread between everything that they're doing, they're far more likely to buy into the work and be motivated because they won't feel like it's just one thing after the next, all stacking up in different silos.

Everything is very interconnected. And not only will that best improve our teacher practice, but it will also help our students thrive academically. socially and emotionally.

you know, you just said a whole lot about PLCs and we'll put it in the notes for the show, but I know that you have a blog about PLCs and about everything that [00:28:00] you just talked about, and so they can go there on your resource page on your website and see that because that was a ton there, what you had to say, all important.

One of the things that I have found, and you're no exception, is that so many of the folks who I. You know, are copacetic. They say that in New Jersey,

What is the word? Not

copacetic,

so much, not around here.

okay. But, you know, actually, you know, think alike, have had some sort of athletic experience or coaching experience. And you were, and I remember in your session you had played both college and professional athlete.

How, you even gave an example from soccer, I think, in your. You know, how did, how does that bit, how did that experience inform how you teach and how you consult?

the analogy, just quickly for your listeners, I was probably 10 years old [00:29:00] and I had a coach who back in the day, this is when like coaches would yell and scream and it seemed to work or so we thought and we were supposed to pass with the outside of our foot. I, for whatever reason, was having trouble passing with the outside of our foot.

And so he grabbed three of us who couldn't do it, showed us how to do it really explicitly. This is how you do it. And like, showed us right then and there and then sent us back in, and sure enough, after seeing it in that small group, little did he know that he pulled a small group, but after seeing it in the small group, I was able to do it.

And so that analogy, that has stuck with me because when we talk about using data to pull a small group, it goes back to what I said earlier. It's like, not that serious. We don't have to think of it as this really big to do. It really can just be knowing what you're looking for. That's that what. So what do my students know, right?

So that coach was able to see who got what, and now what am I going to do about it? In that scenario, the [00:30:00] coach pulled us to the side and showed us how to do it. And so that would be the cycle the low prep, sustainable cycle that I look to bring into teachers and support them with bringing into their classrooms.

And so I use it as the analogy because it just, I don't know, it just stuck with me in terms of, wow, this small group instruction really can happen at any time, at any place with any you know, any angry,

Any content so, okay, talk for a moment about instruction how instruction differs. So I'm a general ed teacher and I have a group of kids in my classroom with IEPs. How do I need to think about those kids differently to provide instruction? How do you, when you take a look at that tier one instruction, how do you talk about that with teachers?

So it's funny you say that, Jane, because I tell teachers not to look at it differently until the data says that you need to look at it differently. So, of course, there [00:31:00] are accommodations and modifications in the IEP that are sort of non negotiable, right? Preferential seating, which I could spend like a whole other I could spend a lot of time talking to you about how I think some of this information is written, but, you know, extended time, preferential seating guided notes, all of that.

Okay. Do what you need to do to fulfill the IEP, but I don't think when we talk about best inclusion practices and when we talk about wanting to provide access to content for our students with learning and thinking differences. We do that best. We provide that access when we use what we see they know and are able to do as the springboard into next steps for them.

So if you know, if I'm going to go back to the example earlier about the student who's, you know, going to an auditory learner, so we're going to provide them an audio version. Why do that right off the [00:32:00] bat? Why not wait to see if the student needs it and then use that in either a small group or use that as your form of differentiation or your scaffold?

It's like we're so quick to jump to changing all of the things and providing different copies and different levels of this and that. Teachers are burning out because of it. And so when we go back to that check for understanding and the immediate response, that inherently is differentiation. And for our students with those learning and thinking differences, you use the information you know about them in your small group, or if you know ahead of time that they're going to struggle with a specific skill or standard, you Then you provide that differentiation or scaffold off the bat.

But oftentimes they'll say, hold on a minute, they're taking the same exam at the end of the year as everyone else. So why are we going to provide them all of these supports and guided notes? And, you know, if at the end of the day, they're held to the same standard and expectation as their gen ed [00:33:00] peers.

Pre

Well, and I think, yes, and you saw me smiling, you saw me smiling at you as you were saying that because if you, I see what happens many times, based on what you just described, how they start doing all of these accommodations and and things be put together. Or they've had an opportunity to respond, give them a chance to be successful.

I mean, there's no chance to be successful. And I think that's what happens with the pre-organized groups. You know, I don't know what you call 'em now, you know, the red group, the blue group.

pre made leveled groups. Yeah, I,

and I think if the teacher is teaching in the manner in which you just described and is doing a lot of checking for understanding, they will find that the groups are fluid, that you expected somebody not to do well, but guess what?

They were able to do this today. And so give them a shot. Let them try because you've got the IEP, you know, some things that you can do, but you don't have [00:34:00] to do it right away. Give them a chance.

co teachers I was working with for a number of years. And. When they finally, when it finally clicked, the idea of like, they don't have to pre make these groups, they don't have to base them on their level, right, reading level, math level. I had the special education teacher say to me, Jonna, I show up to meeting.

I pull small groups. I don't know who's going to be in my small group, but I also show up to meetings being able to bring my data and say, boom, here, these are the skills they struggled with. These are the skills that they need further support in. She said, my, I, my goal writing for IEPs are more concrete when I'm having parent conversations.

I can speak to the content specifically that they're struggling in. If I'm making referrals. to eat for either early intervention. It's an elder elementary teachers. If I'm making referrals for early intervention or a 504, I can speak to the data that [00:35:00] says what this, why the student needs this. And it's all micro data.

And she said, and I leave the end of the day, knowing that I have closed gaps right then and there, as opposed to needing to figure it out after the fact all because They shifted their lessons around a little bit to create more time for that targeted remediation. And so when teachers are able to make that shift of, you know, like, not making groups ahead of time, not having to look at exit tickets for the first time and hope that people, that students got it, they actually open up more time and energy for themselves because they're accomplishing that much more.

in the lesson.

Okay, I'm smiling big again, Jonna, because that is one of the big themes in my book, Teach Fast, is that if you teach effectively, you will be able to know more quickly who knows it, let them go, [00:36:00] and who needs the help and what specific help they need. Thank you for setting up that promotion of my self promotion of my book, Teach Fast.

You know,

good, worthy book to promote, let me tell you.

You know, you said something earlier about, you know, I could talk about this forever, talking about accommodations and what's in the IEP, and maybe not talk about it forever, but I saw on social media, that's actually part of the training that you do with teachers, right? To kind of interpret, to operationalize what we're really trying to do here.

Could you talk about some of those things we see in IEPs?

Yeah, I mean, I think that we get into a copy and paste vibe with IEPs, where if students are sharing, have similar, you know, have similar learning gaps or similar disabilities, then we just kind of bring in the usual from the bank of, you know, accommodations or modifications. [00:37:00] And what. We then, as a result, we move away from the individualized part of I E P, right?

And so when we are able to collect data, micro data on students, and we're able to take anecdotal observations on them, and we're able to see what they are capable of, then we enter IEPs in an asset based way. Strength-based lens as opposed to using the deficiencies that they, the defi, I put that in, quote, their deficiencies and gaps as the means of, you know, pushing the accommodations and modifications that we provide.

So for some students, perhaps extended time is necessary, but. For what types of assignments in math and in writing and reading is it one subject over the other? Is it when they are working on a task? You know, a project based [00:38:00] task? Is it when it comes to tests? How many questions on the test? And I know it seems granular, but we need to be able to Move away from providing the, or grabbing onto the carbon copy modifications and instead truly individualize, and we're only going to be able to truly individualize when teachers are able to speak to those gaps in a very granular way, they speak to those gaps in a granular way when they embed the check for understanding into their practice on an everyday basis.

You know, I don't, I'm not a lawyer and I know the amount of time that special ed teachers need to spend on compliance and what's a huge, what's a huge thing that they have to do? They have to be sure that their IEPs are compliant. So if I was, if I were a teacher. I might go to [00:39:00] that bank of, you know, as I'm doing my automated IEP generator and say that, and when it came time to meet with the gen ed teacher, or came time to meet with the parent, rephrase that.

Because And maybe I'm being too sympathetic because my wife is a special ed teacher, but it's just crazy the amount of time they work to make sure that those IEPs have the specific language to pass muster.

one of them. I was one of them, which is why I created sort of, almost a graphic organizer, I guess you could say, that I, that required the other teachers in that student's life to also complete and share information on that student so that we could look at the student through that strength based lens.

What is the student doing well? You know, when do they perform the best? Is it the morning? Is it the, is it, you know, after gym? Is it right [00:40:00] before or right after snack time? What within the day are they thriving at? Is it when they are creating things with their hands? Is it art class? Do they, are they particularly invested when there's music playing in the background?

All of that information is really necessary in order to best develop IEPs that are curated for not only the disability, but for the student themselves. And it does require front loading on the special educator teachers part, but with the correct systems in place in terms of how to capture that information, speaking to other teachers, general ed teachers, including leadership staff to gain more information, setting up, you know, okay, I'm going to send this in, I'm going to send this template out two weeks ahead of time.

And then within a, you know, you have a week to complete it. I'll follow up with you, those little pieces of [00:41:00] Systematic shifts can make a really big difference and almost cut down on the time that it takes to complete the IEP because the information has been provided through multiple stakeholders including parent and student voice.

But again, it goes back to having the system in place to be able to capture the information. That information, and I think that's a piece that we're missing. We put a lot on the shoulders of special education teachers whether, you know, including guidance and those who handle 504 plans to be included in that and at the end of the day, we're missing the fact that the student is, you know, there's so many adults in the room, and there's so many adults in that student's life that can also play a role in sharing information.

necessary for an IEP to truly be individualized. And so small shifts in practice can help make that happen.

You know, as the administrator used to sit in on the IEPs and student study teams [00:42:00] and you know, there are the list of everybody who should be involved, everybody who should be there. And I only remember one time, one time, when all the parties were there and it was so different because everybody bought a, brought a perspective.

It's like that old story about, you know, the blind, five blind people describing an elephant. Every, you know, the special ed person brought their perspective. The psychologist brought their perspective. The social worker brought their, I mean, it was an and it was really. Wonderful. And it never happens because of the so there needs to be some sort of systematic way to provide input.

Absolutely. And I have to tell you, I had leadership where that was a non negotiable and I was tasked with developing our special education department and our team and all of these systems and all of these pieces. But I had co directors that these were just the expectations. These, this is, [00:43:00] this was what we did.

And so I think that it's. It takes the leadership setting those norms and expectations and then also special education teachers or those in charge of formulating the IEP to create those you know, or fine tune those systems to ensure that multiple stakeholders are involved. You can also head in a direction where.

You create a bank of accommodations and modifications. So at some point, instead of pulling preferential seating for the student who is struggling with ADHD and has a learning disability, preferential seating now becomes sit as close to the teacher as possible, right? And so those small shifts in language truly make a really big difference.

for everyone involved in that student's life. Do

Jonah we could go on all day, but do you have any questions for me, Jonah?

I have questions for you? Wait, I do. Wait, hold on. bear with me. I had to write them [00:44:00] down. I do. I have two questions for you. So beating off of that, I think that we assume that all leaders would prioritize special education training and services, right? Because they're going to best support all students needs.

But, and clearly based on our, just on our conversation today, that isn't always the case. So my question to you is, you know, why do you think that leaders sometimes have difficulty in prioritizing the systems and the strategies that will best support our students with learning and thinking differences.

Okay. I'm going to go back N of 1. Okay. This is all my experience. But when I was doing my administrative credential in California, you do a preliminary credential, and I don't remember what the coursework is, but there was one class, there was one class that had to do with special ed, and I had the opportunity The [00:45:00] distinct pleasure to sit next to a person who was a school psychologist. And so the professor would be talking about, oh, this is how you do a student study team. And this is how you do an IEP. And all the time she'd just be like poking me, says, that's not right. That's not right. That's not right. And so I had the opportunity to have somebody tell me how it should be.

And then my wife was a special ed teacher. And I got to know more about how it should be. So my point is they don't learn about it. Special ed becomes this ancillary thing. That's a pain in the butt that you have to do. And there are decisions made that are contrary to law. And then it's all about being defensive, getting into trouble.

So to. put a ribbon around this. I just don't think they know. And unless it's changed a lot, I just don't think that the preparation is there. And so if you don't have the [00:46:00] coursework, where are you going to learn? You're going to learn on the job. And if the school is not doing a good job, then it's just perpetuated.

And so, oh, you can't make it to the IEP meeting. Okay. Send a report, show up for five minutes, you know, and so, because. It's not important because of there is no system, there is no understanding of, so that's why I think, you know, and so it's all defensive. How do we stay out of trouble?

How do we not get a suit brought against us?

I think it's interesting too that in so many states special education teachers have to get their gen ed license, but gen ed teachers don't have to get their special ed license, and leaders don't have to have their special education license. So that for me just sets, I mean, that says a lot, right? I mean,

yeah, well, I'm going to, I'm going to tell you how disappointed I was. The first time, here I am as an administrator, and have sat through all of these IEPs and student studies, and then, [00:47:00] okay, well, they need the special support that's going to come from the special day class, and then you walk in, and it's not, there's nothing different going on, and there's just, except there's eight of them.

Instead of 30. And I was very disappointed and said, No, you know, I didn't have an answer. I just knew that there was a problem

Well,

you got another question for

I have one more question for you.

Okay.

Okay. So your book, which is phenomenal, and I thank you for writing it because I feel like we need more of that out here in this space, but you talk about your FAST framework, and I really appreciate how you emphasize focusing on one objective per lesson.

Okay. In my experience, Some teachers tend to extend that objective over a period of two to three days, which can delay [00:48:00] checking for understanding until the second, and in some cases, even third day, because that's the way in which they just spread out this single objective. Objective. How do you help teachers recognize the importance of setting a clear objective for each day or each lesson so that they can check for understanding, provide immediate feedback, and make targeted adjustments as opposed to waiting, you know, two or three days later to see who needs what?

Several ways, several things, several ways that we talk about it. And Oh, you got to get my next book about coaching cycles. But in coaching cycles, I'll sit with a teacher and we'll plan. And one of my first questions is, okay, so tell me about what you're teaching tomorrow. And the one of the first things that comes out of their mouth is, well, this is a three day lesson.

I say, well, let's just reframe that. Instead of making it a three day lesson, [00:49:00] make it three one day lessons. And because now, without going into a lot of things, now we can do what you just described. So that we have smaller chunks, so that at the end of the day, Because of all your checking for understanding, you know where they are, you know what, how, you know, where they were successful, where they are.

So now in the next day, that's going to impact the next day versus going three days and thinking, holy cow, they didn't understand from the first day. And so I try to, You know, it gets back to our experience in coaching, like smaller tasks. Let's get smaller tasks that are going to build into something bigger.

I want them to think of it that way, and I want them to realize that it's to their benefit. It's going to make their life easier when they have to reteach, because when they have to reteach, It's only this big I'm making with my finger and thumb. It's only this big versus [00:50:00] this huge thing that needs to be retaught and a huge thing probably doesn't need to be retaught because it's a small thing.

So that's I try to describe it that way, that it's to their benefit, you know, let your kids be successful. Success builds on success. All of those things, but I think the most important thing is that we have met together to go through some sort of training so that when I say that they understand the reason that I'm saying it.

It's not just, no, I don't like three day lessons. You know, it's like when somebody said, I said, so what are you doing the first day? Oh, I'm just introducing the topic. You're introducing what in the world does that mean? Jonna, here's Algebra, Algebra here's Jonna, now you've been introduced. In their head they have a rubric in their head of what that they should look like to be a success. So I kind of talk about it, you know, that way and depending and I would have liked to be in the [00:51:00] room ahead of time so I know how they do things so that I can relate it to, uh, what they're doing.

Yeah, I agree. And I think that when the moment you ask, at least in my experience, the moment I asked teachers to start to describe the objective, it's like, it goes back to what you just said. They like have it in their head, but the moment they have to explicitly state it, it becomes like, kind of goes in circles.

They struggle with being able to communicate. What that objective is and when we can nail that down. And I've had teachers be like, wait, whoa, this is like, like, I knew what I wanted. I knew, like, I know, but I'm just having trouble saying it out loud. And it's like, well, we got to be able to say it out loud.

We have to be able to communicate it, not just for ourselves, but also for our students. And so, yeah.

Once you can get it down to, you're going to kick with the outside of your foot. Now you could teach it. Now you could teach it. You can't teach.

Like, okay. 10 [00:52:00] years old.

Oh, Jada, is there anything that you would like to, we'll get your let's see, you're on Instagram. You're on X. We'll get all of those. You're on LinkedIn.

the things. I'm on all the things.

Yeah. All the socials, as they

All the

the socials. Yeah. And I'm going to recommend, you know, we'll get your website in there. All right. of course, because of, you know, you do have a lot of free resources available to folks and your newsletter so.

there's a lot there. You know, I think that we're in this space where it really should not should not cost a lot of money to be able to just get the job done and ultimately support our most precious population, which is, you know, us. Students. So with that in mind, over the summer, I developed a monthly subscription package as well, where for six bucks a month leaders can receive right delivered to their inbox the beginning of the month, done for you professional development and resources that can be turnkeyed to teachers as an as a way to, you know, [00:53:00] still provide high quality support to teachers without breaking the bank and without, you know, adding on to time and energy.

That they don't have. So very likewise, you know, excited to be in this space with you just trying to support, you know, tough times in education. We're all just trying to make it better.

Well, Johnna, it is always a joy talking to you, and thank you for being on here, and we'll have to do it again.

We will. Thank you so much for having me, Jean.

All right, bye bye. If you are enjoying these podcasts, please give us a five star rating on Apple Podcasts, and you can find me on Twitter, x at G Tabernetti, and on my website, tesscg. com, that's T E S C G dot com, where you'll get information about how to order my books, teach fast, focused, adaptable, structured teaching, and maximizing the impact of coaching cycles.

Thank [00:54:00] you for listening. We'll talk to you soon