Better Teaching: Only Stuff That Works

Gene Tavernetti: Welcome to Better Teaching, Only Stuff That Works, a podcast for teachers, instructional coaches, administrators, and anyone else who supports teachers in the classroom.

This show is a proud member of the BE Podcast Network shows that help you go beyond education.

Find all our shows@bepodcastnetwork.com.

I Am Gene Tavernetti the host for this podcast.

And my goal for this episode, like all episodes, is that you laugh at least once and that you leave with an actionable idea for better teaching.

A quick reminder, no cliches, no buzzwords.

Only stuff that works.

My guest today is Laura Petronella.

Laura is a passionate reading teacher with 11 years of teaching experience specializing in at-risk student populations.

She is taught in the general education classroom in grades three through eight, and as a dyslexia and reading interventionist in grades one through eight.

Currently, Laura is an upper elementary teacher focused on the intersection of the science of reading and learning.

I think you're gonna like this one.

Good morning, Laura.

Thank you for joining me on better

Laura Patranella: Good morning.

Thank you for having me, Jean.

It's great to be here.

Gene Tavernetti: I wanna talk a little bit, dive into your introduction because you've had some interesting experiences in your 11 years of teaching and most of it literacy based the emphasis on literacy.

And so you have taught grades three through eight.

Laura Patranella: Yes.

Gene Tavernetti: You have you've been an interventionist in grades one through eight.

What was the order of that kind of kinda give us your history at your school.

How'd that,

Laura Patranella: sure.

So my first year teaching, I was at a sixth grade only campus, and as the first year teacher in a pretty large department.

I was given they say there's that, like you give the first year teacher all of the kind of the tough kids.

So I had a really heavy load of special education and we have a really high population of L students, so they were all in my class and I had a two hour block with sixth graders.

Gene Tavernetti: Or Excuse me one second, just to clarify, because everybody says things differently.

L students are

Laura Patranella: And I had to think too, I was like, what do I call it?

Changes every year,

Gene Tavernetti: learners.

Okay.

Go ahead and feel free

Laura Patranella: English language

Gene Tavernetti: now on.

English learners.

Laura Patranella: Okay.

That was just trial by fire.

And we were an improvement required campus and we ended up it's just very expensive to run a one grade level campus.

So after that year, I, we all got put onto two middle school campuses.

And so after my first year, I taught eighth grade for two years.

And I just always loved special education students.

I love working with them.

And after two more years teaching eighth grade ELA, I asked to become a campus interventionist, which wasn't really a position at the time.

They would typically put space in ELA teachers days to have an intervention class, and we had a set curriculum with that.

So I requested that we concentrate all of the intervention.

Into one teacher.

So that half my day was tier two intervention sections, and then the other half of my day were sections that were dyslexia only.

And so I.

Gene Tavernetti: Okay.

Couple questions.

Number one, dyslexia.

How are you using that term?

Laura Patranella: So we use, in Texas, we use the IDA definition where dyslexia is a reading disability that's phonological in origin, meaning that the parts
of the brain that are used to process sound, are at a deficit compared to their both their we use IQ to determine and then also their other reading subtests.

So that's our definition.

Gene Tavernetti: you had students with dyslexia and what was the other group?

Laura Patranella: I would just call 'em tier two students kids that were unsuccessful on star, which is our end of year high stakes test.

That's how they were chosen for that,

Gene Tavernetti: and so they were referred to you.

These

Laura Patranella: correct?

Yeah, that was the counselor in charge of scheduling.

So they look at test scores and decide who gets placed in those classes.

Gene Tavernetti: Okay.

And were they placed in classes by grade level, by abilities?

How were they placed?

Laura Patranella: My dyslexia classes were six through eight.

You would have a range of grade levels in those classes.

But then the tier two intervention, those were only seventh and eighth grade sections, and they would just be, I like, I didn't have sixth graders in them.

It was just the seventh grade section and then an eighth grade section.

I had

Gene Tavernetti: And then you're coordinating with their general ed teacher.

So is that the idea or were they, or were you their language arts teacher?

Laura Patranella: It was an extra reading class, so they had an e, LA and then they lost an elective to be in the, what we call, I forget what it was called, but they lost they lost an elective to be in my class.

Gene Tavernetti: So kids always enjoy that, right?

Middle school kids,

Laura Patranella: Yeah.

I was everyone's favorite teacher.

No.

They really liked it.

When a student can't read, when a student can't read, they know they can't.

And when it's sixth, seventh, and eighth grade, they've carried that burden through years of education.

If a student is in eighth grade and is at like a second grade reading level.

That's basically the year where they stopped making progress.

It's not like when you get to a certain point behind, you're really not making a lot of incremental growth.

You just stay stuck until you get that instruction that you need at your level.

That's really where I learned to lean into the direct instruction because kids just thrive when they have the, those queer expectations and

Gene Tavernetti: So when you say direct instruction, you're talking about Capital D, capital I, Engleman

Laura Patranella: Just like roses and shines.

I was following a, a strict scripted curriculum that was, designed for middle school students who were reading two to four years behind grade level.

Gene Tavernetti: And those were for both groups, both the dyslexia

Laura Patranella: No, I had a dyslexia specific curriculum for the dyslexia and that's something, it was, you hear a lot OG aligned Orton Gillingham, they're one of the original programs.

So this was OG aligned, but made in Texas at a service center, but very similar compared to, samples that I've seen of both OG and then also like the Wilson system is another really popular dyslexia program, so very similar.

Gene Tavernetti: Okay.

A couple questions come to mind as you're talking about that experience.

So how long did you do that, that as an interventionist that way?

Laura Patranella: I two full years and then I was in my third year where in October an opportunity they had a retirement.

At my husband's campus.

So I actually was able to transfer and I worked with my husband for one year.

At elementary, middle school is very hard.

And the dynamics of intervention classrooms at middle school are a major challenge.

And so while I was doing my best to, let my concerns be known.

There were just some situations in class that made it really impossible to teach.

Gene Tavernetti: Okay, so when you transferred, then, what was your assignment then?

Laura Patranella: I was teaching fifth grade, that was like COVID year, so I taught fifth grade.

That was while.

Okay.

I show up in October.

Gene Tavernetti: You have, it's tough to do middle school intervention and then COVID.

Okay.

Laura Patranella: Yeah.

I got there in October and every fifth grade teacher was teaching all subjects, and then we were able to convince campus and district admin based on.

Data that we should go back to being departmentalized because like my husband was the math expert, you have someone that had taught science for seven years and then I have the ELA background, so we convinced them to go back to departmentalized.

So then we started rotating the kids through, so then I was ELA for about three months and then we went home and never came back.

And that was that year,

Gene Tavernetti: Okay.

Okay.

And then in your bio you said you were also interventionist for grades one through eight, so we heard about

6, 7, 8. What about one through five?

Laura Patranella: the COVID year, I ended up teaching third grade math and science to students where I reported to campus.

But the students were all at home.

So I taught virtually science and math third grade.

And that was fun.

I do teaching math.

I'm not as like emotionally invested in math because it's really not what I'm passionate about, but so it was like a less easier year to not be concerned about how perfect my instruction was.

Gene Tavernetti: so interventionist, dyslexia now you're

Laura Patranella: two years, like gen ed and then I, we had.

Then the year after that, the co, the full COVID year where I was teaching the third grade math, I was in a different district up in Dallas.

And then we came back to the San Antonio area and I was a six through eight dyslexia only interventionist, split on two campuses for one year.

And then I was able to move down.

And do elementary dyslexia for K through five split across two campuses.

Gene Tavernetti: So is that also.

You're in different districts, but in Texas do they have a agreed upon curriculum that you're gonna follow?

Laura Patranella: I was back in, I was using the same curriculum, so we just left our hometown for a year, came back so it was the same curriculum.

Gene Tavernetti: Okay.

So you have all of this going on, intervention specialists, and when did the science of learning science of reading come into your life?

Laura Patranella: I guess science of reading was really what you learn when you become a dyslexia interventionist.

The program that we used was a really long training.

In terms of typical trainings, it was like a two week initial.

In-person training where they came to our district and, and taught us how their curriculum works.

And then we had periodic updates.

So I really I never knew it as.

Science of reading, it was just how you teach reading.

And then that really start, I guess I gained like a broader awareness of the issues when that sold A Story podcast came out.

And that's where I started to understand more of the broader context of how kids are taught in elementary school.

So I'm still, still a new teacher.

Our district for all the years that I've been in it has had an HQIM and we never really used some of the more vilified curriculums that are out there and in that sold a story conversation.

I don't really have a before and after as far as the gen

Gene Tavernetti: That's really interesting in that, uh.

You walk in, you say, I'm doing this, I'm doing this.

That's all I know how to do.

Okay.

So that was because you had this experience almost, serendipitous, like now you've got your own classroom and you can bring all these things in.

What did the curriculum look like that you were using in the general ed versus the more scripted things in the interventionist,

Laura Patranella: so I would say that really now that I'm back in the gen ed and in upper elementary where you know that.

That decoding element is still a really important piece of instruction.

It is like I'm bringing together the skills that I learned when I was teaching the tier two intervention at middle school.

Where it was prescriptive, but really like the Rosen Shine process of, steps.

And then combining that with the, the knowledge of the six syllable types that I learned in the dyslexia.

And then also this past year, just learning, being on Twitter and being a part of that science of learning conversation has really, it's not so much that I've.

Learned new things.

It's that I've gained a better awareness of how what I've been doing fits into existing models.

I've just been following what I was taught as good instruction, and now I have more confidence in the way I run my classroom because I've gained that broader context of where these ideas fit.

Gene Tavernetti: Is there still an intervention program at your school?

Laura Patranella: Yes.

Very fortunate to be in a district that has an intervention block we have a 45, every grade level has 45 minutes.

That is protected intervention time and that's when the dyslexia interventionist pulls her groups.

And then you also have the special education team pulls kids out.

And then we have a gen ed interventionist who kind of works with our.

I know this is a hot button term, but like our bubble kids, the kids that are,

Gene Tavernetti: by the way.

Laura Patranella: Yes, we live or die by that star.

All about star.

Gene Tavernetti: So a question, the question that I have is based on your experience and now you have your own class.

Are you able to bring a lot of those things, not just the science of reading stuff, but do you do a lot of intervention in class intervention

Laura Patranella: Yeah.

So one cool term that I just heard this morning, and I don't know, it's tier 1.5,

Gene Tavernetti: Uh huh.

Laura Patranella: which I think is like such a fantastic way of describing what a lot of.

High quality tier one instruction looks like.

Upper elementary is complicated because as far as, um.

You're decoding and your language comprehension are starting to become so intertwined that you really can't separate it when you're teaching kids.

So there's that scarboroughs reading rope model.

Where all of the strands start very separate, and then they all get woven together to create that skilled reader.

And when you're in upper elementary and middle school especially with like vocabulary instruction and those multi-syllabic words, everything is so connected.

And so not only is it connected in ways that are challenging to kids that really push them to, push them to understand new concepts, but also
like as far as working memories concerned and being flexible in like your vow pronunciation as you're trying to pronounce an unknown word.

You're really getting into like generalization and the adaptation if you're thinking about the instructional hierarchy because they've learned these decoding skills and they have basic.

Concepts and understanding of the world.

But as the pronunciation of words gets more complex, they have to be more flexible in how they approach sounding out a word.

And then they're also getting these new layers of meaning as the content gets more specific.

So it requires a very structured environment, and I think that's one of the.

Hardest parts of being confident in your instruction and some of the more pernicious sort of structural components that hang on from like the guided reading era of like whole language instruction and, prioritizing small group is understanding that.

Really fantastic instruction can happen.

Whole group in a very structured and upbeat way.

Gene Tavernetti: And I think another one of the main benefits.

Of, the structured program that you were talking about and the programs that you use.

The direct instruction is the teacher gets to actually see the kids learn.

They know it works.

And that's another virtuous cycle is that.

If you see the kids learn, you become more confident in the learners, you're able to go faster and they're more confident.

And because one of the things that I always talk about is the if a teacher's ever in a, an interview to be hired, and one of the things that they will always say is, I have high expectations.

But when you watch 'em teach they don't know that the kids can do more.

Because of the lack of training or they haven't had that experience that you've had to see wow, these kids can do a lot more.

And then to paraphrase, your answer about your, these kids in the general ed set setting, they can do more because you understand how to present it and they're still gonna have gaps that they need to fill.

But but you could, but you can go on.

So you, Laura, you had these great experiences.

What about teach, and I'm not asking you to throw anybody under the bus because you know better, you do better, but have they had the same trainings that you have had

Laura Patranella: theoretically in Texas they have I know now new hire, if you're getting certified in Texas, you have to take a science of reading teacher exam, and you would have to prepare for that.

And that's all designed around like the six syllable types and understanding those principles of literacy.

And then we also had reading academies, which I did not do because I was not in a grade level that was required to do it, but they, I heard from.

Coworkers that I guess it was all over the board.

And then they've been reported on as far as how well they worked and if they worked.

And there were immense amount of time and many teachers were not compensated for the time.

So I don't know how much of a lasting impact that's had on on teachers coming into the profession.

I do know that our HQIM, like you're very limited in Texas on curriculums that satisfy the phonics component.

We did have legislation that requires a phonics component in your district for K through three.

So there is really only one option that's available in English and Spanish that satisfies that phonics component.

And that's the one that we use in our district.

And there, it's in there.

It's in there, it's scripted.

I think where we're not seeing results is probably a reflection of dosage, because as far as what I've looked through, it's aligned to the science of reading.

But I'm not sure the, every kid needs different amounts of repetition and that curriculum does move really quickly.

I'm thinking that the, the results are more a reflection of nuance and dosage and understanding, um, how much of what kids need.

Gene Tavernetti: That's a real common what you just stated, I think is real common in, in curricula everywhere.

Just, is it implemented?

Is it implemented?

And I like the word you said, dosage because that's another way to say, are we doing the repetitions?

Are we giving the time necessary that.

The actual research that was done in this program.

Talked about your experience, how how you learned this.

And I think that it's very I just wanna say, I think it's very cool.

I always love to work with a teacher like you that says, I learned this.

We just called it something different.

And.

And now.

And now I know.

And then you talked about how you learned it.

You talked about a little bit about what's going on with teachers and when teachers have to take a test, I'm always leery of that because the skill to pass a test is a student skill, not a teacher skill.

And some people are good test takers and some people don't even know what they know because, anyway, and that was you, Laura.

You don't even know what you know.

But then there's one other component and that's the administration.

So what's the administration?

What do you think the administration needs to know?

Not only leading the instructional program, but even being.

Even more granular, like coming in and watching you teach.

What do you think?

What are the most important things that they should see during a lesson?

Laura Patranella: I think, I keep thinking about like poor proxies for learning and I think a lot of what campuses and districts look for aren't necessarily proof of student learning.

In particular, when I think about small group time, so if an administrator comes in and I am running a small group and they're all engaged, but then what are my kids doing that, are, not with me, and are they able to do, is that grade level work?

And I think that administrators really need a solid understanding of what grade level content looks like, and even content specific look fors as far as quality instruction.

And then I guess I'm really, I used to be more I used to think that teachers should have more freedom as far as what was taught in their class.

And I used to appreciate that saying of building the plane while you're flying it, which was introduced to me in in, in like countless, there was always this, like this same old.

Advertisement that they would play about like building the plane as you're flying it.

And I used to really embrace that.

But now, like I don't wanna work nights and weekends anymore.

And so I've personally done spent time over the summer like really digging into my HQIM, which I had a very poor opinion of leaving.

This school, like leaving this past school year.

But I have learned so many more aspects of it that I didn't have time to investigate during the school year.

So I think either district-wide or campus-wide, like there needs to be experts in the materials and that's one conversation, that's the what.

And I think that we do really need to be tight on.

What you're teaching.

And then separate from that is the how and are we asking teachers and supporting them in developing classroom routines that actually drive learning versus, check a box that's higher up on our evaluation scale.

Gene Tavernetti: You've mentioned something that.

I love when I hear people, talk about things they've developed.

I think of, yeah, off the top of my head, I think of the the writing revolution, which is very much driven by explicit instruction.

How they present the material.

And if you do that program, you are doing explicit instruction.

So there's a side benefit and it's like you described, it's like I was doing this OG and then I got to learn about the rest of this stuff by studying closely how I was delivering the instruction.

And so I, I think a good, a good curriculum teaches the teacher along the way as well.

And if it's good, you continue to learn from it and then you continue to appreciate it.

Hopefully that's what the type of

Laura Patranella: Yeah, so I love the writing revolution.

And they are very explicit in encouraging you to use all of the strategies.

So I think this is a really good hypothetical where there's such a difference between.

Like being a writing revolution campus and using writing revolution strategies and the impact and the difference between the two, I think can't really be understated because especially when you consider the
student experience, if they're in a school where the five question words in kernel sentences have been something they've seen since they were five and six years old, at least orally, and then moving on to print.

When you get them in fourth and fifth grade, you can they can take off.

And and it's like we're holding our kids back because we're too afraid to upset people.

And I understand that.

And, it's complicated.

Like I,

Gene Tavernetti: building the plane.

We're building the plane every year.

Laura Patranella: Yeah.

Gene Tavernetti: Oh, Laura, this has been I really enjoyed this.

I think your experiences are impor an important example?

How you can learn through these programs.

And if the district and the state is doing a good job, you're learning good things because you have good programs.

Do you have any questions for me?

Laura Patranella: Yeah, how would you like I was thinking about kind of common teacher types, and I feel like no matter where teachers are in their career, there's always a part of them that.

Doesn't know if they wanna stay with the career.

So like how do you build campus systems that would increase buy-in and really motivate teachers to embrace the harder parts of the career?

I.

Gene Tavernetti: Two, two things.

Number one, a lot of the teachers who are unhappy, and I've hit thinking of one teacher in particular as I tell you this story she was just not a happy person.

I think she was a second or third grade teacher, I don't remember exactly.

And we worked with her on explicit instruction.

And it took her, she was a more veteran teacher.

She was an experienced teacher, and it took her a little bit longer to pick up some of the things we were talking about and I was worried about her.

I went back the next year and watched her teach.

It had all been internalized, what we had talked about.

It just took her a little bit longer to get it, and she was a different person.

She was a different person.

So I think one of the, it's just like kids that are motivated when they're successful, if we can provide, to help them be more successful with the kids are learning more easily.

They're happy.

They're, they feel successful.

That's one part of the answer.

The other part of the answer is I think some people are.

Teachers and some people aren't, and we have to, say it's okay.

Hey Laura, go do something else.

You could do anything.

The what's the saying?

The graveyard is full of people who thought they were indispensable.

It just, go do something.

Life's too short, and if you find out you miss it, come back.

But I, we have to do the best job we can as administrators, supporting teachers, and not feel like a teacher's a failure or we're a failure because they wanna do something different.

Look what?

Look at what your career, you left and then you came back.

He said, no, this is, and for whatever your reasons, it doesn't matter.

That's the other thing.

We can't, don't tell me, oh, you wanna leave Laura?

What's your why?

What's your why?

Why are you here?

It's not about that.

It's about your life.

So that's the way I feel about it.

You help 'em as much as you can.

And then, you are happy for them as a human being if they're moving on to do something else.

And then we will, we'll get another person in here and we'll do the best job we can to train them to do a good job.

Laura Patranella: Sounds good.

It's complicated.

Gene Tavernetti: It is, we're dealing with people.

People are complicated.

Laura, it has been a pleasure.

Any final words any bits of advice for folks?

I know they can find you on Twitter.

Laura Patranella: Yes.

I have a somewhat defunct substack, but it's elementary, which I'd say that's my guiding principle.

It's a joke.

And it's important to have a sense of humor with all of this, but I think we make things harder than we need to, it's like you said, we're dealing with humans.

When you're a teacher, you can't take the child out of the instruction.

Gene Tavernetti: Amen.

Amen.

Laura, it has been a joy.

We'll talk to you soon.

Laura Patranella: sounds good.

Bye.

Gene Tavernetti: If you're enjoying these podcasts, tell a friend.

Also, please leave a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.

You can follow me on BlueSky at gTabernetti, on Twitter, x at gTabernetti, and you can learn more about me and the work I do at my website, BlueSky.

Tesscg.

com, that's T E S S C G dot com, where you will also find information about ordering my books, Teach Fast, Focus Adaptable Structure Teaching, and Maximizing the Impact of Coaching Cycles.