Better Teaching: Only Stuff That Works

Welcome to Better Teaching, Only
Stuff That Works, a podcast for

teachers, instructional coaches,
administrators, and anyone else who

supports teachers in the classroom.

I'm Gene Tavernetti, the host for this
podcast, and my goal for this episode,

like all episodes, is that you laugh
at least once and that you leave with

an actionable idea for better teaching.

A quick reminder, we only
share stuff that works.

No cliches, no buzzwords.

I'm really happy today to
have as my guest Adam Mohler.

Adam is a dedicated and innovative middle
school social studies teacher with 11

years experience of designing, Engaging
technology rich lessons that maximize

student engagement and empower learners.

In 2022, Adam was honored by being
selected the Ohio District 5 Teacher

of the Year, as well as the OCSS Middle
School Social Studies Teacher of the Year.

He was recognized for reflecting on
and sharing innovative instructional

practices that drive student achievement.

Adam is also the co author of
EduProtocol's Social Studies edition.

a topic that we will explore
further in this conversation.

Welcome, Adam.

Thank you for being here.

Thanks, Gene.

Thanks for having me on.

Really appreciate it.

It's always, it's always a
pleasure, talking to you.

And, you have some, some expertise,
and I know it's recognized expertise

because you travel quite a bit
presenting on a couple topics.

one of them is AI, which is, it's
just one of those topics that

everybody talks about these days.

And I worry when everybody talks
about it because you don't know

who actually knows anything.

But uh, in my conversations, I feel
pretty good about, you have some

knowledge in AI, especially how it
relates to instruction in the classroom.

could you talk about AI a little
bit with respect to how you use

it and see it in the classroom?

Let me start with this.

Like, I, I think none of us right
now are experts in AI, right?

Like, this stuff is so new and
it's still expanding, still

exploding to the point where I'm
still learning some things, right?

Like, I even mess stuff
up every now and then.

So, for example, I thought that,
uh, there's this AI program.

Program out there called pi.ai.

It's pi.ai and I thought it was
approved for ages 13 and up.

Well, it turns out it's only approved
for 18 and up, so it's like I'm still

learning stuff and still teaching
myself, still trying to figure the

ins and outs 'cause this AI stuff
is ever evolving and we're in the

middle of an AI revolution right now.

and, and yeah, it's changing
the way that I teach.

It's changing the way that students learn.

and quite honestly, this
is how we need to view it.

We need to think to ourselves,
how can this AI help me?

plan lessons.

How can it be my assistant,
basically, because it has a lot of

knowledge and it can be an expert
if you want it to be an expert.

And that, that's how I view it is.

I view it as this assistant of
mine that can help me plan lessons.

It can help me give feedback.

It can generate ideas.

It can help me start the first
draft of an email if I want it to.

but then.

I'm going to go in and put my two
cents in a little bit here and there.

how do you use it, in the classroom,
in your, in your instruction?

is that the first, first place
that you started using it?

When I first saw this tool back in
January of 2023, I thought, oh my,

this is something that is powerful.

and what's funny is it's still so new that
we're still coming up with ideas for it.

We're still experimenting
and seeing what it can do.

But I use it to generate
questions for myself.

I, I know one of my areas of weakness
as a teacher, has always been questions.

And so I use it to help me generate
questions at depth of knowledge

level one, depth of knowledge
two level type questions for my

checking for understanding for my,
quizzes or GIM kits or whatever.

and so like I'll, I'll put a reading
into AI, something that we are reading,

things that we are learning that week,
and I will have it generate questions

specifically toward that reading.

And one important thing I want to share
with everybody is this 80 20 rule,

which kind of ties into this new skill
that we're all going to be able to

have to do here is edit AI responses.

So when I put in a reading and I
tell AI that it's an expert question

maker, I tell AI that it's making
questions for 8th grade students,

and I see what it gives back out to
me, then I am going to go over it.

with a fine tooth comb.

I'm going to, it's going to
do 80 percent of the work.

I'm going to do my 20 percent and
I'm going to make sure that the

language fits with what my eighth
graders know and understand.

I'm going to make sure the
language and the wording fits with

the reading that I gave to it.

And I'm going to make sure that
the questions are legit depth of

knowledge, one and two level questions.

I just don't want to just have AI create
something and I don't put any thought

into it and then just give it to the kids.

That's, that's not going
to be good for anybody.

So whatever AI gives to you, be able
to edit and understand what it's

giving to you I was going to say that
requires good background knowledge.

Right.

Yeah.

and, and it's getting, being
able to do that last 20%,

that makes all the difference.

Mm hmm.

So, so what you've described so far is
that, I were to, paraphrase this and

make some assumptions and inferences,
you have already planned your lesson.

You, you've made decisions about your
content before you go to AI, because

I know that some teachers, you know,
or you look on some, uh, some social

media, they use it to create lessons.

What, what do you, what's
your thoughts about that?

know, I, to me, as a teacher,
I really like the creative

process of designing lessons.

Being able to start with the end
in mind, work backwards from there,

and then sequence a lesson together.

That's one of my favorite things to do.

And to me, I'm never going to
just simply go to AI and say, type

in, create this lesson for me.

If I do, I'm simply just getting some
ideas because maybe it'll come up with

something better, or I should say it
always will come up with something better

than I can think of, but it just depends
on, is that right for my students?

Is it right for me?

Am I comfortable delivering
that lesson or not?

And I find ways to tweak it to.

What my students know, what I
know, and then go from there.

So, I like it for ideas, I don't like it
doing 100 percent of my lesson planning

for me, because that just takes the, it's
almost like a, like the textbooks now.

Textbooks take the creativity out of
teaching, and I don't want the AI to

take the creativity out of my Teaching
and lesson planning, if you will.

You know, one of the things you've, you
told me in the past, and it seems like,

every point you make, uh, reinforces
this, and that is, the teacher's job is to

think, and make decisions based on their
class, their kids, in the moment, and

to be able to, to adapt and adjust, you
just can't, you just can't turn that over

it's a constant process of
understanding the hundred plus

students that are in front of you.

Constant process of understanding
what they know, what they don't know,

just what you know and don't know.

And then, just being creative and
making it the best learning experience

possible for those kids in front of you.

so that's it, that's how you use,
AI in, in helping you, Provide

the best instruction to your kids.

What about do you have students use AI
to produce anything or to do anything?

Any tasks?

Yeah, so this is, I'm fully admitting
this right now, this is kind of where

I messed up, where I thought pi.

ai was, approved for 13 and up, and I
had some 8th graders using AI to give

them, so like for example, in a lesson
that we did, I wanted the students

to compare causes of the Civil War
to objects that had no, affiliation

with that cause of the Civil War.

So, essentially they were
making up metaphors, if you

Right?

Yes.

Yeah,

And so a lot of kids struggled with it.

So I had them go to AI and I had
them use AI to come up with some

ideas just to get them started.

And a lot of them, came up with a lot of,
found a lot of good comparisons and came

up with a lot of good metaphors between
cause of the Civil War and these objects.

And I also used it as well where,
another lesson where I had the

students create a government superhero.

So if this branch of government were
a superhero, what would it look like?

What objects would it have?

What superpowers would it have?

And some of the students used AI
to generate some of those ideas on

different objects and superpowers
that the government would have.

But they needed, and here's
where someone might say, well,

where's the creativity in that?

the students needed the background
knowledge of the branch of government to

get out of AI what they wanted, right?

So.

So that's where, utilizing AI in smart
ways is still useful, can be useful, and

can lead to a better creative process.

So you wanted them to do the same
analysis with what they had produced,

with what what AI had produced that AI
produced for you in your instruction.

So it's always, it's always that
evaluation analysis of, of that.

you said you were going to admit this.

I was waiting for a much bigger mistake.

Well,

I was going to have a bigger
confession than that, but that's

the worst that happens, Adam.

That's not bad.

Yeah.

yeah, I just felt bad, but it's like that.

It's like going back to what we
started with is sometimes we view

people as AI experts or expert.

I'm like, I ain't no expert.

I just, you know, I'm still
learning alongside everybody else.

I'm just always thinking, and creatively
thinking, on how I can use AI to make

my life, my teaching, everything better.

My classroom better.

Everything.

Well, you have, implied, an answer
or a couple answers to this question,

but, if you have some teachers who
haven't done anything with ai, do you

have any cautions for them before they,
as they embrace AI or move forward?

Try it out.

Well, here's what I'm gonna say,
is, number one, it's not going away.

You can't wish it away,
you can't block it away.

It's only going to put you
and your students behind

if you refuse to accept AI.

And is it going to change this world?

Yes, it already has changed this world.

Is it going to have to change,
is it changing the way that

you're going to have to think?

And is it changing the way
that you're going to have to

think about your teaching?

Is it changing the way in which
we have to think about creativity?

Yes, it is.

It's changing all of these things.

And so I highly recommend that anyone
out there start experimenting with AI.

Just go there, Start
asking some questions.

You could play 20 questions
with it if you want.

You can have him make dad jokes.

But just experiment with it and see
what it can do and start thinking

how can you possibly use this?

How can you use it for yourself?

Where is this going to
fit into your classroom?

Because it's, it's so important
for us right now as teachers to be

ahead of this and to understand AI.

So when we do go back into the
classroom, we can have meaningful

conversations with students.

I I've seen so many times that.

Some students were getting into trouble
at my old school, where, for using AI.

And, you know, and I use this example in
my sessions, where a student said they got

written up for using AI to write a poem.

And I'm like, well, why did
you use it to write your poem?

And he said, well, I
didn't know what to do.

And I said, well, why
don't you ask the teacher?

He said, I'm too scared.

I said, why don't you
ask AI how to write it?

He went, oh, I never thought of that.

I said, or better yet, why not try to
write it, then ask AI for feedback, and,

uh, you know, have it give you expert, an
expert opinion on your poem, and if any

changes need to be made, But yeah, if we
can have meaningful conversations like

that, then we can get our students and
ourselves thinking differently about AI.

that's, that's what I have
to say about the use of AI.

Mess with it, figure out how to use
it, figure out where it's going to

fit into your life and into your
classroom and learn to have meaningful

conversations, educated conversations
with yourself, with others, with students.

You know, that's, I I'm going to, put a
term onto that, what you just described.

with that conversation with that
student of the things he could do.

Meta learning, there, there's a meta
part to all of this, which is, I

think, a good segue into the next
thing I wanted to talk about with

you, which is, uh, the edu protocols.

And, uh, there are going to be a
lot of people who listen to this who

do not know what edu protocols are.

And I'll let you describe it a little
bit, but you also mentioned, uh, when you

were talking about AI, how you're already
using AI in the edu protocols, and maybe

we'll try to put all of this, all of this
together, but you wrote, know, just one

more time, you are the co author of a edu
protocol social studies edition, so if

you could, uh, Talk about edu protocols
a little bit, especially with respect to,

uh, the content that you teach, social
studies, and, Adam, I know I've heard you

say this, that you are, uh, E L A teacher,

Yes, I'm a language arts teacher
as I steal from my co author Dr.

Scott Petrie.

I love that line.

it's funny, I've been doing
job interviews and like, I,

I've never thought to say that.

When the, when the very first
question in any job interview is,

tell me about yourself, and that
was the job I just got hired for.

That was the very first time I ever
said it right out of the gates.

They said, tell me about yourself.

I said, well, I'm a closeted English
teacher teaching social studies.

And they said, that's what won
them over right there, that line.

And I never thought to say it in the
two years I've been doing interviews.

I don't know what I've
been thinking, Gene.

But that's uh, that's uh, my
favorite line right there.

but yeah, so, going back to this,
so, Eduprotocols are the student

centered lesson frameworks.

And quite honestly, they are not far
off from stuff that we already do.

But, what these frameworks do is they
provide structure for the students, they

allow students to think creatively, they
allow students to collaborate with one

another, communicate their learning,
and then you build in the critical

thinking pieces for the students.

And what I like about protocols is that
they are used over and over and over again

and again and again on a weekly basis.

They are creative, they're fun,
students enjoy them, and the thing I

like for me personally is when I go
to plan week to week for my class, I'm

not thinking of a billion different
things that I need to plan for.

I'm not trying to think of 30 different
engaging activities for the week, because

I I already know what I'm going to do
with Edge of Protocols, and I'm going to

do a Fast and Curious, I know I'm going
to do a Thin Slide, we're going to do a

Sketch and Tell, I'm going to do a Cyber
Sandwich, I'm going to do, I'm going to

throw in all these different pieces, and
the students become familiar with them

over time, when students know what they're
doing, then they're going to get after it.

and be creative and, you know, let
less problems happen, especially

in my middle school classroom.

I don't want this to be, an edu protocol,
session, but we do, we do have to

describe it a little bit and we'll put
a link, to some of the things, but,

uh, could you describe, for example,
uh, when you say people, this is

something people are doing already,

for example, like a quizzes or a game kit.

Like, most of us are doing those
already in our classroom, right?

Like, if I ask a room full of
teachers right now if they understand

what a GIM kit or a quiz is, most
of them would raise their hand.

But here's where the Edge
of Protocol piece comes in.

Instead of just doing a quiz or a GIM
kit once or twice a week for a review,

why not do it every single day for
the first three, four minutes of class

real quick, give kids repetition,
And build up their confidence and

do it throughout the week until they
reach some sort of a goal, right?

Or, uh, the Cyber Sandwich, for example.

before you describe the cyber
just because you talked about

things that they're already doing.

If you ask any teacher, uh, do
you think a student learns this

because we presented it one time?

No.

Do you think we have to go over it again?

Yeah.

Okay.

Well, here's how you could do it, you
know, three or four minutes, no prep.

And guess what?

There's research behind that.

there's, you know, about how
we learn, we've retrieval

practice, all of these things.

So I, I just wanted to reinforce the
fact that yeah, you know, a lot of

good teachers are already doing this.

So this is even easier to do
what you're already doing.

and it's just three minutes at the
start of every class, Fast and Curious.

Or at the end of class,
wherever you want it, right?

that is something that you, I don't
remember if we talked about this another

time or at the beginning of the, of this,
uh, of this chat here that, that's another

place you use AI to help create those.

Yes, yeah, that's, and that's where
you get in AI, have them create

multiple choice questions, and then
boom, you can throw them in the GIMP

kit, or you can throw them in the
Quizzes, but I know the Quizzes has

AI built into it, and you can easily
make questions now within Quizzes, so.

So that's one you could do.

You could do the, uh, practice every
day, retrieval practice, maybe it's

vocabulary concepts, whatever it is.

And then you started, before I
interrupted you, you were going

to talk about a cyber sandwich.

Another lesson strategy that we use
within class is a think pair share, right?

And so a cyber sandwich is just a, can
be on paper, or it can be a digital

version of a think pair share, where
students read one source and they

write down or type out notes on two
different Google slides and then they

compare their notes with each other and
then they write a summary at the end.

And so they're essentially thinking
about what they're reading.

They are pairing up and
sharing what they found.

And then they're writing a
summary at the end of it.

And, and so that's why I say that
protocols are not far off from what

we're doing, but think to yourself,
how many times are you using

retrieval practice in your classroom?

How many times are you using a think
pair share strategy in your classroom?

Is it on a weekly basis, a monthly
basis, or just a couple times a year?

Whereas with protocols, I'm using it
consistently, trying to, once a week.

So it's

again, I, I, and I think they are a meta
strategy that, that it helps kids learn,

helps kids learn how to learn that being
able to see, you know, being able to do

that analysis of compare and contrast.

And so edgy protocols, you know, like the
Facebook group I saw today, they have a

Facebook group that is very user friendly.

I think I just saw today
they have 20, 000 members.

I think what, what, what somebody
posted, which is crazy, And

there's 20, 000 members.

And some schools, never heard of them.

Some schools, like, like your, like
your school, how many, how many

teachers would you say in your old
school were using the edu protocols,

knowing that they had somebody who
had written a book and traveled across

the country talking about, about them?

I'd say a handful.

Five.

Well,

When I first saw them, I couldn't
wait to have a conversation with

John Karippo, one of the, one of the
creators of this, because I saw it,

this complements the work that I do.

it's, it's like you said earlier,
most teachers are already doing this

somehow, but not efficiently, and
working way too hard, thinking, how

am I going to be creative today?

I just worry about how we scale that up.

Let me, let me ask you a question
as a, as an experienced teacher.

And, what if your principal That your
new school said, I think everybody

should be trying some edgy protocols
this year, you know, because we are one

of the things that we really need to do.

We have a big issue with
vocabulary development.

Our reading scores aren't that great.

We can, we know that we
can use this quizzes.

What do you think would be
the response of, teachers?

To something like that, how would it have
to, how would it have to be presented?

something that I've learned from
doing some AI consulting with

the Successful Practices Network.

I think this holds true, and
I saw this in my own school.

That's why I'm sharing this.

So if some administrator came in and
said everyone's going to do this, I

would first be cautious of, here's why.

In every school you
can divide into thirds.

You have a third of teachers
that aren't going to do anything

no matter what you tell them.

They're going to be grumpy and mad.

and say, this is awful,
I'm never going to do it.

You have a middle third of teachers
that are like, okay, I might

try this, but I need to see some
research and data that supports it.

And then you have another third
of teachers in your building that

will do anything that you ask.

They are the most excited.

people on the planet and will try
anything and are excited by new things.

And so I would say this is find
the teachers that are excited.

about using anything new and
say, here, here's, here you go.

Here's a book.

Here's a strat, a couple
strategies that I've learned.

Try them out.

And your hope is, is that that will
trickle to that middle third when

they start seeing, but you have to
like, at some point that people having

conversations like, Hey, I'm really
excited about this new strategy,

this new edge of protocol I use.

Do you want to try it out?

And here's why it works.

And then you're hoping that
trickles over to the middle third.

And more of them start
to use it over time.

And then if it gets to that top third
of the grumpy teachers, then great.

If not, they're not
gonna do anything anyway.

and so that, that's how I look at it is.

Find that, those, those third of teachers
that are just excited about everything,

get them using it, get the administrators
excited about it, and then it tends to

trickle down to the, to everybody else.

So you think that it's possible to
be doing more just with a little

more intentionality, regards to the
leadership and, and how it happens

and knowing that just to dictate.

not gonna, it's not gonna,
it's not gonna make it happen.

had people, I have people dictate stuff
at, at my old school and we didn't do it.

I guess, I mean, it's just,
we're like, okay, whatever.

it's just schools, it's people, it's
teachers, and you know, that, that,

on us anyway, so.

yeah.

you know, I was excited to
learn, you had put on, uh, well,

I don't know how I learned it.

you, I may have just been talking to
you, but you're gonna be also teaching

at, a college course this year.

Yeah, I'm gonna be at Mount St.

Joe's University.

Uh, in Cincinnati, and I'm gonna be
an adjunct professor teaching history

courses, so, and I might just, uh,
I've never done this before, but I

might just start off with one course,
and it seemed pretty open ended, and,

and I could select the topic that I
wanted, and I could select, if I wanna

be online or in person or a hybrid,
and, uh, yeah, it's pretty exciting.

Oh, wow.

Did you use your closeted, uh, L.

A.

language arts teacher?

Lined with them?

No, no, no, no, so, so this is funny.

When I first started teaching,
uh, I was a paraprofessional

in a social communication unit.

So I followed around a student that was
on the spectrum and, uh, The guy that

ran that unit, I'm friends with him on
Facebook and he's seeing some of the AI

stuff I've been doing and he sent me a
message saying I have a friend is looking

for adjunct professors and I was telling
her about you and so we emailed each other

and I started talking with her and sharing
some stuff I do in my own eighth grade

class and she's like, I kind of like that.

Some of the stuff that you do and how
you bring it in and what you do and,

do you want to be an adjunct professor?

It was just, it was simple, really.

kind of weird how things
work out, you know?

It's very weird.

And there are things that
you're just supposed to be in a

place and it happens like that.

do you see you use, uh, you talked
about how you planned lessons using AI

and edu protocols for middle school.

Do you see yourself using a lot of the
same strategies with the college students?

Yes.

So, yes, and here's why.

So, At this school, a lot of the
students, not every student, a lot

of students that take social studies
courses are those students that

want to be social studies teachers.

I should say history courses.

They want social studies teachers.

So I view it as an opportunity to
not only teach them some, History

or go more in depth on stuff they've
already learned in high school, but

I see it as an opportunity to show
them some strategies they can carry

with them into the classroom as well.

I remember one of my education
professors, he said, modeling is the

most important way to teach this,
but don't use me as an example.

and I thought he's making a joke,
you know, but nobody, nobody laughed.

He didn't seem to bother, it wasn't,
didn't bother him that nobody laughed,

because, you know, you like to tell jokes.

If you tell a joke and it, and it
bombs, you know, you'll follow up

with something, you know, is this
mic on or something, you know,

but he was absolutely serious.

so at any rate, I, so want to ask you
one last thing, because you have, you

have lots of, you know, experience
in the classroom, experience working,

presenting and consulting, if you were
going to give somebody some advice to

prepare for next year and help them for
next year, what might that, that be?

I would say one, get
to know your students.

You're preparing for next year.

Get to know who's in front of you.

Take the first week of school and I, and
I learned this with the Edge Protocol

stuff is get to know your students.

through some low cognitive reps
and to introduce, uh, any, well, it

doesn't have to be an edge protocol.

If it's something new that you want
to try and you want to teach your

students process, do a low cognitive
rep, get to know who they are, and

then just kind of let it go from there.

I think sometimes we get wrapped up
in this idea that it's school and

it's, we have to be serious and we
have to like do all these rigorous

things right out of the gates.

And, and, and to me, I'm
like, it's just school.

And so get to know your
students and have some fun.

And yeah, it's just school.

that's, some people ask me,
what's the biggest thing that

you've learned from COVID?

And what I learned from COVID
back in 2020 is it's just school.

All right.

That sounds great.

Any, anything else that you'd like
to share or where can, where can

people find you to, to follow you?

I know Gene has probably mentioned
my blog before, but, uh, I

reflect on my lessons, uh, weekly.

And I bought the rights to this
domain, it's molarsmusings.

com, so you can just type that in now
and it'll take you right to my blog.

I share all my templates, and I was
worried, I was very worried that since

I'm switching schools, that I would
lose all of my templates and my links

on my blog, but I transferred everything
from my old school account to my new

school account, so now it's good to go.

Awesome.

And I really recommend that to
everybody because it's not just, uh,

what he did, but his reflections and
the thinking that teachers are paid to

do, about what went well, what didn't.

And, uh, I really recommend
Moeller's Musings.

Any, where else can we see you, Adam?

And, uh, so, Facebook, and I highly
recommend anyone join the Edge Protocol

community, and I know Kim Vogey does an
awesome job with that group, she's gotten

that group, you said 20, 000 people now?

That is unbelievable to me,
unbelievable, and it's truly the

most positive place on the internet.

Check out edgeofprotocolsplus.

com, you'll see templates and shows
and, And you get free lifetime

support there from John, Marlena,
any of the Edge Protocols people

or authors, uh, there as well,

All right.

Well, Adam, I can't thank you enough.

This has been great.

Thank you.