Better Teaching: Only Stuff That Works

Gene Tavernetti: Welcome to Better
Teaching, Only Stuff That Works, a

podcast for teachers, instructional
coaches, administrators, and anyone else

who supports teachers in the classroom.

This show is a proud member of
the BE Podcast Network shows that

help you go beyond education.

Find all our shows@bepodcastnetwork.com.

I am Gene Tavernetti the
host for this podcast.

And my goal for this episode, like
all episodes, is that you laugh at

least once and that you leave with an
actionable idea for better teaching.

A quick reminder, no
cliches, no buzzwords.

Only stuff that works.

I am very excited about today's episode,
and we are taping this episode on January

3rd, and I think it's appropriate that
this is a New Year's episode because so

many people have New Year's resolutions
and goals, and I'm sure many of the

people who listen to this podcast have
a goal, a wish, to get a book Somebody

has told them at some time during
their career, you should write a book,

and you want to, and then you don't.

So today, we're We have a guest who's
in the publishing business who'll

be able to talk about how to move
from wishing about writing a book to

actually getting a book published.

And so my guest today is Mark Combs.

Mark is in the middle of a lifelong
love affair with the written word.

So it's no surprise that his
life's work has centered on books.

For decades, he's helped authors bring
their ideas to a wider audience by

helping them craft the best book possible.

Mark has worked in all facets of
publishing, from sales and marketing

to editorial production, as well
as all genres of book publishing.

He's worked for trade publishers, academic
publishers, and most recently, K 12

professional development publishers.

And it's here in K 12 publishing
that Mark has found a home.

Mark knows that writing a book
is a solitary endeavor, but he

also knows that publishing that
book is a collaborative venture.

Publishing is an arcane industry,
and an author needs a helpful

guide through the process.

Marks works with his authors to peel
back the mystery behind the publishing

process so his authors are better armed
to promote themselves and their work.

You will recognize many of the
books and authors with whom he's

worked at his website, murmur,
M U R A T I O N, Authorservices.

com, and that will be in the
show notes, as I said, but some

of the authors he's worked with,
Doug Lamont, Patrice Bain, Tom

Sherrington, Zach Rochelle, and others.

And Gene Tavernetti.

He helped on both of my books,
Teach Fast and Maximizing the

Impact of Coaching Cycles.

So, let's meet Mark.

Good to talk to you this morning, Mark as
I said in your introduction, you've been

involved with a lot of authors, a lot of
successful authors, a lot of authors that

people will recognize when they go to your
website and what was your, one more time,

what was your website again, your new

Mark Combes: It's, yeah, this
might spur a conversation here,

but Murmuration Author Services.

So it's M U R M U R.

Oh boy.

Nation, Authorservices.

com.

Gene Tavernetti: And you know what?

I'm glad you did that because that's
how I, I cut it out of the introduction.

I'm going to have to edit it out, but
we will have it in the show notes.

So people will, we'll get there

Mark Combes: a little long winded.

I probably should have thought of
something a little shorter, but there you

Gene Tavernetti: they'll be able to see
all the, again, the familiar authors and

familiar books that probably on many,
which are on their bookshelves, but kind

of, let's start from the beginning, Mark.

How did you get involved in publishing?

Mark Combes: English Lit major back
in, at university, in college, and just

kind of fell into publishing that way.

Just a love of words and the written
word, really has just kind of

carried me through my whole life.

I started off with a small trade
publisher in the sales department.

And I was their national account manager.

So I'd called on Barnes and Noble
and Amazon and Borders back when it

was still around and also called on
all the distributors that you may or

may not be aware of, Ingram, Baker
Taylor those book distributors that

distribute to the independent bookstores.

I also ran our, export business as well.

So I, we had distribution partners
in the UK, South Africa and

Australia, English language countries.

So I worked with them as well as
going to some of the international

book fairs and helping out our
rights person take overflow meetings

on when we sold international
rights to our books at those fairs.

So a little bit of everything.

And that's one of the nice things
about working for a smaller publisher.

is that you get to wear a lot
of hats and you get exposed

to a lot of different things.

Gene Tavernetti: So, English Lit
major, excited, love of books,

and now you're gonna go to,
now you're gonna go sell them.

Mark Combes: Now you can go sell them.

Gene Tavernetti: and so, what other
roles that you have and kind of other,

the reason, Also wondering about your
background is because I know one of the

names that will be familiar to everybody
is Tom Sherrington and I was reading

after I had already known you, I go to the
last chapter and he gives you your due.

about how you got him
to write his first book.

Could you, so what were you doing?

How did

Mark Combes: yeah, so I did the sales
thing for a while, but again, part of

that kind of circling back to that, one
of the other hats I wore was a member of

the Acquisitions Review Board, and almost
all publishers have this to one degree

or another, where there's representatives
from a variety of different departments

come together and decide which books they
are going to actually acquire and publish.

And I was the sales
representative for that.

And that's what really got me
started on the whole editorial

side of the publishing business.

The idea of working with ideas again,
as opposed to selling them, right?

So I did the sales for about 10 years
or so, and then I went and worked

for a higher ed publisher, calling on
professors and working with them to write

textbooks, basically, for their course
and supplemental text for their courses.

Did that for a few years.

Fast forward to I was approached by a
recruiter for a company in South Florida,

who was looking for a publisher to
oversee their publishing department in a

professional development services company.

Right, so that's what got me to Florida
and got me into professional development,

and it was there that I met Tom
Sherrington, kind of circle back to that.

I met him at a conference.

I think some of your listeners
will know of ResearchEd.

And I don't know how many years ago that's
been now, five years or so I met him at a

conference and went to one of his sessions
and he was presenting on Rosenstein's

Principles in practice or in action.

And I thought, boy, that'd
make a great little book.

So I pushed him after the conference
and said, have you ever thought

about writing a book about this?

And he said, no, not really.

But, you know, he was keen to
do that, so we quickly kind

of threw something together.

Basically, he had it all written, because
he was already presenting on it, and

thus sprang Rosenstein Principles in
Action, and now we've sold hundreds

of thousands copies of the thing.

Gene Tavernetti: So how much is a
unicorn, how much of a unicorn is Tom

Sherrington that a publisher approached
him and said, I want you to write a book.

And I'm thinking about all these people
in the audience who want to write books.

Should they be expecting
somebody to knock on their door

and ask them to write a book?

Mark Combes: In this
space, it's not uncommon.

In fact, it's where I find most of my
authors, is that I either find them via

social media, I follow them, I read their
blogs, I listen to their podcasts, I go to

their sessions at conferences, and they've
got something interesting to say or

something that's a little bit different.

Right?

And so I would much prefer to find my
authors that way by approaching them

as opposed to what we call, you know,
manuscripts that come over the transom,

those kind of unsolicited manuscripts
that may or may not really fit into what

you're looking for or fit your style.

Right?

Because every publisher has a little bit
different View of the world and you want

to make sure that you're presenting the
right topic and the right what's the right

word, the right kind of wavelength to that
particular publisher, because everybody

has a slightly different take on things.

Gene Tavernetti: Okay.

So, well, I met you because I had
written my book, Teach Fast, and I was

looking for a publisher, and people
who know me won't be surprised when

I say this, you know, but because I'm
so smart, I didn't ask for a lot of

advice, I just did stuff, and then after
the fact, they tried to figure it out.

So, when I met you, I had already
For the most part written the book

and I thought that's what you did
but how should people get started?

And if Mark Holmes doesn't approach
them, how did they get, how did

they get started writing the book?

Mark Combes: Yeah, by
starting writing the book.

I think people get intimidated
by the concept of I've got to

put down 50 to 75, 000 words and
how am I ever going to do that?

I've got a full time job and two
kids and a dog and the whole thing.

So you just you got to find time to
write and you got to write the book.

It doesn't mean that you have
to have it finished before you

start approaching a publisher or.

You know, start, for lack of a better
word, shopping the manuscript around,

but you want to have a pretty good start
on it, and at least have a very good

understanding of what that, that book is
going to be about, the structure of it.

That said, you know, I've certainly worked
with authors, again, Typically authors

that I've approached that haven't written
in it, you know, you thought about writing

a book, Gene, and no, I really haven't.

So we then it's the kind of
creation process between you and I.

Let's see how we can kind of
formulate this idea into a coherent

book and how should we structure it.

And those are the kinds of
books I really like working on.

Gene Tavernetti: So how does that work?

I know that Again, when I was looking for
a publisher for my book, there were, I

would see the publisher's guidelines, and
this is the guideline for a proposal and

gosh it, for me, it seemed pretty daunting
because I didn't have a a protocol for it.

I had no outline to do that.

How important is that if you're shopping
If you're shopping a manuscript.

Mark Combes: Having an interesting idea
that doesn't have to be 100 percent

unique, right, it could be A side idea
to something but yeah, you have to have

some sort of hook, some sort of idea.

That said, the writing is important
as well, and that's going to

vary a little bit by publisher.

Some publishers are a little bit more
forgiving on how clean the writing

has to be, and some will want it to
be absolutely perfect because they

don't want to do anything with it.

They want to come in and do a little
light copy editing and then publish it.

So it's a little bit of both, but if
you want to weigh the scale and you

got to have a decent idea because the
writing can oftentimes be cleaned up.

But again, that said, again, the writing
has to be at least passable, right?

So that the publisher doesn't have to do
too much work and invest too much time

and energy into cleaning up the writing.

Gene Tavernetti: Alright, so, if you
were, if someone wanted to start a

book, your suggestion is that they start
writing, um, how much structure is.

Well, let me back up a little bit here.

Many of the proposals that we see, say
they wanna know, where's your table

of contents, what's in every chapter.

And is that's, is that pretty standard?

Mark Combes: That's fairly standard.

Gene Tavernetti: should know?

Mark Combes: Yes.

It may feel like I'm kind of equivocating
here because Every publisher is a

little bit different, and that's
part of the problem with publishing.

It can be very arcane and, you know,
what one publisher does, another doesn't,

you know, my acquisition process is
significantly different, I think, than

most traditional publishers, where
you do send in that 13 page proposal

with competent comp titles and your
marketing plan and the whole rigmarole.

My approach is much more interactive.

I want to talk to you.

I want to find out about who you are.

Can I work with you?

Because I like to work with my authors and
develop the ideas that they come up with.

And are you open to editorial suggestions?

So it's more of a relationship building
kind of a thing, as opposed to a

transactional type of situation, which
would find in a traditional publisher.

I'm not sure if I answered
your question there.

Gene Tavernetti: Well, I'm going
to, I'm going to expand on what

you said that you'd like to you
know, develop a relationship.

And that's why I liked working with you.

And because the
relationship goes both ways.

It's, I have to, you know, when
I send you something that I've

worked on and you have it edited.

I have to respect you.

You know, I'm not going
to argue about everything.

And a little anecdote when my book
finally did get Beyond You, which

was I don't know if you knew this
but our editor Anders, who we worked

with, he always complimented you.

He says, when I get a book from
Mark it's in pretty good shape.

So that means we, we had a
chance to develop a relationship

and do a lot of work.

But the other thing that was so
interesting when I did get the book to

the publisher, there were, or to the
editor there were a couple of things

that had been really problematic.

for me that I didn't
know how to figure out.

And when my first call with the
publisher within the first like three

minutes, he said, I hope you don't mind.

I switched, you know, I switched your
introduction to chapter one because

it just and that was the exact problem
that I didn't know how to figure out.

And that experience just got it done.

And I didn't have to
worry about it anymore.

So, I agree.

I think that relationship
is very important.

I have always respected, you know,
when people have given me feedback

do you ever, have you ever been sorry
that you accepted a book and then

you started to work with somebody?

And,

Mark Combes: Yeah.

I mean, we've all had those kind
of first dates that go really well.

And then you go out to dinner and you
go, I'm not sure what I saw in her

when we had coffee because it will
happen, but not very often though.

And then you can usually work through
it in a kind of a professional manner.

It's just, it's a little bit work
than you thought it was going to be.

Yeah.

And then sometimes life intervenes too.

I mean, yeah, one of the questions,
or one of the things we'll talk about

early in the process is, do you,
are you dedicated to doing this?

Because writing a book takes time, and
it's, as I often tell my authors, it's

butt in the seat, fingers on the keyboard.

That's how books get written.

And it's not some muse that's going to,
you know, like a lightning bolt strike you

in the head and you're just going to be
able to crank out this book in a weekend.

It's going to take some concerted
effort on your part to get it done.

Do you have the passion for the
project in order to get it done?

Yeah

Gene Tavernetti: that people Always
wonder about you know, they always

hear in the movies, you know, I've
got a deadline, but I got a publisher,

a deadline from my publisher.

Well, are those hard and fast?

Or the story on those?

Mark Combes: I'm going to be a little
wishy washy and I, and if any of the

listeners take anything away from this
is that Publishing is a morass, and

every publisher is slightly different
in how they approach these things.

Some are going to be extremely
tight on those deadlines.

I've worked for publishers
that have slots.

Your book is going to be June 2025.

If you miss June 2025, it could
be another six months before we

have another slot for you, right?

So you got to get it done.

Some are, most are a little
bit more flexible than that.

You know, they'll publish seven books in
June instead of five or whatever, right?

And then they can make it work,
but always be respectful of that

deadline because the publishers
has got a forward vision, right?

They're starting to line things
up based on that due date.

They're starting to schedule their
copy editors, their design people

to start working on the cover, all
based on that due date, because that's

kind of the trigger for all of that.

So, nobody's going to come to your house
and, you know, repossess your car if you

don't get your book in on time, probably.

But be respectful of that deadline.

And be up front.

That's something that when you
initially sign with a publisher, make

sure you have a good understanding
of that and be honest with them.

You know, I'm going to take a sabbatical
for six months and I can get this done,

or no, you know, I'm, it's going to
take me 18 months to get this done.

Be honest about that time
schedule for yourself.

Gene Tavernetti: one of the things
that I remember you telling me is

the publishing is, Hurry up and wait.

Hurry up and wait.

I know I've talked to I've talked to a
friend of mine who just finished a rewrite

of one of his books, and he said, Yeah,
it should be coming out in mid 2026.

You know that how.

It's not immediate is what
I'm, is what I'm trying to say.

So, so what's a general, if, again, this
might be wishy-washy, but what's a general

timeline for getting a book written?

You talk to somebody and they say,
yeah, I'd like to write a book.

What would be a good rule?

Mark Combes: Yeah, I would say within a
year of the manuscript being submitted,

a clean manuscript being submitted.

So now it's in the process, right?

Now it's in the pipeline,
in the production pipeline.

I think a year is probably pretty
reasonable for most publishers.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The ones I've worked for turn around
much quicker than that, much faster than

that, usually within five or six months
of that clean manuscript coming in.

But again, it really does vary.

They will, if it's a book they really
want, and it's timely, what's called

in the business as a trend book, a
book that's, you know, Talks about

a topic that's super hot right now.

They might move it up a
little bit faster, too.

Gene Tavernetti: but it's
just a little bit faster.

I mean,

Mark Combes: Yeah, there's only
so much they can do, right?

Yeah, but yeah, they can maybe get
in a couple months if they really

put the pedal to the metal, but

Gene Tavernetti: I think that's one of
the biggest surprises I think for new

authors is that just how long it takes.

And then there was an additional, I don't
know if you remember this Mark, but there

was an additional issue with my book.

It came out, it was being worked
on during COVID and then we had the

supply chain issue and the books were
coming from Great Britain and it took

forever and you never knew when it
was going to arrive or where it was.

It was crazy.

So, so it always takes longer
than you think, I guess,

Mark Combes: It always does.

Yeah.

Yeah, the distribution pipeline always
catches a lot of first time authors.

You know, the publication date is when
the book is released to the public.

It's not necessarily when it's
gonna be on the bookshore.

Bookshelf or in Amazon's
warehouses, right?

Now, we are now shipping it
out to Amazon's warehouses.

That takes a week.

It takes them a week to receive it.

It takes them another four or five days
to fulfill the order, whatever, right?

So, we're talking some time here
before the pipeline gets filled up,

and people are anxious because they
pre ordered their book, and, you

know, they're wondering, where is it?

You know, the publication
date was two weeks ago.

How come I haven't got my book yet?

Well, that's one of the reasons why,

Gene Tavernetti: You know, the one of
the big surprises for me was, well,

I always had a goal to write a book.

I always said, oh, you got a book.

I write the book.

Oh, isn't this great?

And then, holy cow, I got to sell it.

How what's that process like?

How, what advice would you have for
people with regards to marketing or

just, how does that work these days?

Mark Combes: I'll confine this to the
professional development space, seeing

as that's what we're talking about here,
and it's what I've been doing for the

past 10 years or so, is that unless this
is really a passionate project and you

something that you really want to do, you
probably should have some sort of platform

in order to kind of promote yourself and
your work by that, I mean, you're doing

whatever you're writing the book about,
you're probably We're already presenting

in schools or maybe this is something
that you oversee within your school.

You're the special education teacher
at your particular school and you've

come up with an idea on how to some
sort of pedagogical approach that

you think would work well elsewhere.

So you have some sort of platform that
people can gravitate to and that you

can kind of self promote yourself.

That helps a great deal.

Certainly in the professional
development space.

Gene Tavernetti: So, what should they
expect from a, well, there's, I was going

to say, what should they expect from a
publisher, but there's another option.

Now I think that a lot of people are doing
and I think that's a space that you're

involved in is self publishing, supporting
authors who want to self publish or

just supporting authors in general.

So what's your thoughts about
self publishing these days

Mark Combes: Yeah, self publishing
has changed quite a bit since it

first kind of came on the scene, I
don't know, 10, 15, 20 years ago.

The options for an author are quite
good now, but you do have to understand

that self publishing means exactly that.

You are now publishing the book yourself.

You're doing all the things that
a publisher would normally do, or

you're contracting with someone
to help you with that, right?

Editing, layout, cover design.

Finding out how you're going to
distribute the book, how you're

going to market the book yourself.

All of those things are going
to fall on your shoulders now.

It's not insurmountable by any
means, again, because the systems

are much better than they used to be.

It's certainly doable, and of course your
compensation is going to be considerably

higher because it's only your mouth
that you're feeding now, as opposed to a

big publisher who's got a lot of money.

A lot of departments
to kind of keep moving.

So it's certainly doable, but you have to
be willing to take a little bit more work.

And so you'd probably want to partner
with somebody who can at least

get you most of the way to that.

And the biggest hurdle typically
is getting a good quality

book published that's copy
edited, that's laid out, right.

That, that's formatted well.

So it, the quality of the book really
does matter the most, more than.

Anything else I think,

Gene Tavernetti: when I talk to
people who are thinking about,

you know, self publishing and
everything that we've talked about?

I always emphasize the support.

That I received in the editing,
the copy editing, the whole,

that, that whole piece.

I mean, I was to the point where is,
you know, I'm going back and forth.

I've rewritten written
paragraphs so many times.

There's one word that I can't decide
on and I'm driving myself crazy.

You know, I need somebody to help and I
think that would be, if I were to self

publish a book, you know, I think that
would be the biggest thing that I would be

looking for people that are competent and
that had experience in doing that work.

Mark Combes: And knows the space, that
professional development space or whatever

space you're publishing in if you're
writing a romance novel, you're going

to want to find an editor who's worked
on romance novels in the past and who

understands the marketplace and what the
marketplace is looking for can also help

you with You're stuck on some sort of
thing and that, that editor's probably

read a research paper about that and can
maybe kind of point you toward that and

kind of if you're thinking about something
a little bit different or something like

that can be an aid to you in your writing.

So I would be very leery if
you're an education writer.

You want to write an education book
going with some of those kind of

mainstream trade self publishing
firms who aren't going to have a very

good understanding of the content.

Gene Tavernetti: And then after that's
done, then you're still stuck with the

marketing of the book, whether you had
it self published or you had a publisher,

Mark Combes: And that's where having
that platform comes in, right?

You know, if you're, you can, it sounds
a little capitalistic or whatever, I'm

sure what the word would be, but you can
think of your book as a marketing piece.

Right.

In some ways, it's kind
of your calling card.

This is what I do.

This is what I talk about.

And it doesn't mean that's the only thing
you do, but you probably are going to find

a slot that you're going to fill, right?

You're an instructional coach, right?

That's what you do, Gene, right?

So here's the book, and this is
how my approaches are, and it's

a good way to kind of introduce
yourself as well as a leave behind.

Say you're working with a school
that's got 150 teachers or so,

and there's 150 book sales.

Right.

You just kind of work it
in with your presentation.

So everybody gets to leave
behind with your book.

Gene Tavernetti: And the

Mark Combes: And, you know, to the,
and to back up a little bit Again,

the distribution aspect of self
publishing has improved greatly in the

past, I would say, five to ten years,
where that hurdle via Amazon and some

others, they make it fairly easy for
you to kind of upload your book and

make it available to other people.

the general public, somebody who's
just kind of browsing on Amazon.

And there's different ways that
you can do advertising on Amazon

to kind of promote your book.

And again, working with somebody who
knows all that stuff is helpful as well.

But that's something you can learn.

You can get your book out there to just
to kind of the general public, as opposed

to just selling it to directly to schools.

Gene Tavernetti: and a more
technical question here that

I had thought of before.

So if you self publish a book, and
okay, you get all the ISBN, you get

all that technical stuff done, the
copyrights taken care of, should

be taken care of by the publisher.

The company that's helping
you self publish that

Mark Combes: Correct.

Correct.

Gene Tavernetti: So how does it,
where do the books actually go?

You get them printed and now I've got
a contract with Amazon or, you know, an

agreement that, that, oh, there's my book,
you know, they can buy it through Amazon.

So what happens?

Do I have to continually ship books
off to Amazon, or how does that work?

Mark Combes: Yeah.

Again, I'm going to be wishy
washy because it can depend.

It depends on what you want to do.

You can take those files, your
book files, and go to a printer

and print 3, 000 copies and keep
them in your garage if you want.

And you can be your own
distribution center.

That's certainly one way to do it.

But then, you know, you've got to
have boxes and mailing and etc.

What I would recommend doing is finding a
service, and there's several of them, that

do the distribution for you, for a fee.

Right, they're going to take a cut of
every book that you sell, but they'll

do probably print on demand, and print
on demand has gotten considerably better

in the past decade or so, too, almost in
distinguishable form of offset printing.

Offset printing is when
you do a big print run.

5, 5, 7, 000 copies on a regular kind of
printing press, whereas print on demand

is just done digitally, kind of one
at a time and then there won't be any

inventory for you to have to worry about.

You haven't spent 10, 000
to print all these books.

You're printing them as you need them,
and they will distribute them for you.

That, that's the route
I would go, probably.

Gene Tavernetti: and that's
part of the services that you

provide now, is assisting people
in making those decisions,

Mark Combes: things to set up.

Yep.

Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.

Because those are the things that, to
quote Seinfeld, there's always a guy,

there's always a guy who could do it.

You don't have to do it yourself.

If you think you have to do everything,
it becomes too big, I think.

So,

Mark Combes: subject matter expert.

Stick with what you know, right?

My dad always told me that.

Never be afraid to hire a
professional, you know, and I'm not.

You know, if I need somebody to work
on my car, I find a guy who knows what

he's doing, as opposed to me trying
to figure out where the water pump is.

Gene Tavernetti: Yeah, is there and I
think you've kind of talked about this

not directly, but you find somebody
to write a, wants to write a book or

they, you've talked about it and is
there anybody who shouldn't write a

book who says, boy, I want to write
a book and can you have you talked to

them and you recognize that right away?

Mark Combes: That's exactly right.

That's why I have, and you remember
this, I have what I, termed a

discovery meeting with my authors.

And you can think of it as just
a cup of coffee and talking over,

you know, you and I over a cup of
coffee talking over your book idea.

This is a guy I can work with.

Is this guy passionate about this project?

Because I often work with first
time authors and they're, you know,

you know, I'd like to write a book.

That'd be kind of cool.

And well, no, it's, you're, we're
talking seven months of hard

labor here to get this thing done.

Are you passionate about this project?

And you really can only tell that,
I think, by talking to somebody.

Are the people that
shouldn't write a book.

That's and I often find that
in those discovery meetings.

Gene Tavernetti: you know, one of
the, and I was so excited when, you

know, I finally signed a contract and
like, I was like many authors, you

know, shopped it around a little bit.

And, you know, the first
question that people ask me.

Oh, what was your bonus?

What was your signing book?

What's the reality of that situation?

Mark Combes: Those are quite rare,
certainly in professional development.

The Douglamovs of the world will
get an advance, but also keeping

in mind what an advance is.

An advance is an advance
against future royalties.

So they're just prepaying
you your royalties.

It's not a bonus.

It's not, although some authors
in some other genres might get a

signing bonus, that's extremely rare.

I mean, you were talking James Patterson,
JK Rowling kind of things, right?

So I would worry less about an advance
and focus more on the royalties

they're going to pay you and go in at
that and attack it from that angle.

Look for a graduated royalty scale.

The more books you sell, the higher
percentage you should earn from that.

Also look for How that
royalty is structured.

Is it on net sales or
is it on cover price?

Makes a huge difference, right?

So I would attack it from the royalty
standpoint and try to negotiate

as strong a royalty schedule as
you can for yourself, as opposed

to saying I need a 5, 000 advance.

Gene Tavernetti: And again, how do
you, how does somebody find out about

Mark Combes: That's part of the,
that's part of the agreement process.

So if I were to come to you and
say, yeah, we want to publish your

book here's our publishing terms.

And that will, and in those terms,
the royalty schedule will be laid out.

And as an author, I would
come back and say, you know,

I think we can do better here.

I need more than 10%.

You know, I'd like to maybe start at
10%, but if I sell 5, 000 copies, I 15%.

after that sort of thing.

And publishers are kind of
coming around to that too.

It's a little bit more of an incentive
for the author to help market the book.

So, but again,

Gene Tavernetti: does, go ahead.

Mark Combes: no, I was just gonna say
people get hung up on, on advances.

I wouldn't, because again, it's
advance against future royalties.

It's not free money.

It's just, When he got early.

Gene Tavernetti: Well, and another
thing, as I was looking at, again, at

your website and I had been talking to
you about, you know, self publishing

another book with another group that
I'm working with, and taking a look at

your, Fee structure to do all that work.

That's something if you're with a
publisher, they're just absorbing

Mark Combes: Correct.

Gene Tavernetti: and you don't realize
it in, in, in some, another way to look

at that is, I just got a five grand
advance because they did all this work so.

In other words, don't get hung up on that.

Mark Combes: Right.

Right.

Gene Tavernetti: Don't
expect that big advance.

Mark Combes: And to kind of piggyback
on that and maybe even circle back

to that deadline, keep in mind that
the publisher is spending all of this

money before they make a dime, right?

They don't make any money
until that book is sold.

So they've got to, they've got to
pay an editor, a cover designer, an

acquisitions editor, all of those
things are front loaded into your book.

Yeah.

Right.

Before they even realize any money.

So it's not like they're
taking a bit of a gamble.

Right.

You know, not all books will pan
out or sell as well as they hoped.

So, so have a little sympathy
for your publisher too.

Gene Tavernetti: Is there something that
I should have asked you, or something

that you would like to share with
folks who have a goal to write a book

this year, get started writing a book?

Mark Combes: Yeah.

If you're looking to write a
book, get going, get started

and set a schedule for yourself.

If it means getting up at 5 in the morning
before the kids get up and go to, you

gotta get them off to school and it's
only a half an hour, you'd be amazed at

how quickly a half an hour could turn
into, ah, I can sneak another 15 minutes

or 45 minutes here or there, right?

But get yourself into a writing
schedule, and I think that's the,

the biggest hurdle most authors have.

It's just building that writing discipline
there's going to be days where you've

got the flu, but you've got to get a
thousand words down, you know, and it's

not all glamorous, but it can be done.

And a lot of people have done it.

Do the work.

Gene Tavernetti: Do the work.

Do you have a question for me, Mark?

Mark Combes: I'm always curious as to how
my authors feel about their experience.

They're publishing what sort of thing.

Opened their eyes or was open to
them, like, oh, I didn't expect that.

Gene Tavernetti: Well, I've talked
about a couple of things, but before I

do that, Talk any, you know, talk about
specifically and answer your question.

I want to give you one more pat on the
back and I would recommend that if anybody

is going to in this new year think about
writing a book get to your website,

which will be murmurationauthorsservice.

com And and have a cup of coffee with
mark a virtual cup of coffee because

Don't be out there by yourself.

If you don't know how to do
it, you don't know how to do

it and talk to a professional

Mark Combes: appreciate that,
Jane, and to emphasize that,

I love talk and book ideas.

So yeah, even if it's kind of, in its
infancy, your ideas in its infancy with

this chat, it doesn't cost us anything
other than 50 or 20 minutes of your

Gene Tavernetti: And that
really gets something out of it.

So, so for me experience, you
know, again I had two paths.

Going one when I was doing the
work and I was also learning about

the business at the same time and
I tried to, um, offload all the

learning about the business to you.

Again, it had to be somebody that
I trusted that it was going to,

that I was going to move along.

But as we talked about during this,
during our chat here, had the goal.

You know, I want to write a book.

I want to write a book.

Then here comes your book.

And now I want to sell the book.

I want to sell the book.

And then now it's not enough, you know.

So, so that, that was my experience.

So my experience was wonderful up
until the time it got published and I

wasn't even thinking about marketing.

before that.

And I think it was too, my experience,
I don't want to say it was too late,

but I think my sales haven't been what
I would wanted them to be because I

didn't think about the marketing side.

And now I see, you know, some of the,
some of my some of my friends and

acquaintances, you know, they're doing
what I should have been doing, you know,

their book coming out at six months
and I, they're promoting it every day.

Okay.

And and working.

So that would be the, that would be the
thing that I learned in this experience,

which gets me to think about, you know,
if I were to do another book, because

I'm always thinking about writing
another book, you know, would I go

self publish a route given given what
I know now, and given that I am not J.

K.

Rowling, so I'm not one of these
guys, you know, I'm not going to be

selling a gazillion books and how do
I navigate this mid level existence?

Mark Combes: exactly.

Yeah, again, having a little
sympathy for the publishers, right?

There's, they publish a lot of books,
and they only have so many resources,

financial resources, in order to promote
those books, and all books get promoted.

Don't think that, ah, we're not going to
do anything with this book at all, but

everybody's budget is going to be slightly
different based on, you know, What their

expectations for that particular book are.

And of course, just the
way the curve works, right?

There's going to be 20 percent of
the books that do really well, and

they're probably going to get a
little bit more marketing support

than those mid list authors.

who are probably going to have
to make, kind of have to plow

their own field in a lot of ways.

They'll get marketing support, but
they probably won't get as much as.

I've never met an author that said, boy,
they just, they keep throwing money at me.

You know, they're over marketing
me, you know, and that's even

the top tier authors, right?

You know, no, no author ever
thinks they're over promoted.

Gene Tavernetti: And that's funny,
I was surprised, I met somebody

recently, and that's, and we were
talking about this, and I was very

surprised to hear that from this author.

I thought, my goodness, you?

You know, they're, so, but it's everybody.

Mark, it's always a pleasure
talking to you, and I always

wanted to spend more time with you.

When we

Mark Combes: Yeah, this has been great.

Gene Tavernetti: And to chat.

But the problem was it
was all business before.

Now it's, now we just
had a chance to chat.

So, so thanks Mark.

And I think you, this was a
good service for a lot of folks.

Mark Combes: I hope so.

Gene Tavernetti: All right.

Mark Combes: always
appreciate talking with you.

Always a blast.

Gene Tavernetti: If you're enjoying
these podcasts, tell a friend.

Also, please leave a 5 star
rating on Apple Podcasts,

Spotify, or wherever you listen.

You can follow me on BlueSky at
gTabernetti, on Twitter, x at gTabernetti,

and you can learn more about me and
the work I do at my website, BlueSky.

Tesscg.

com, that's T E S S C G dot com, where
you will also find information about

ordering my books, Teach Fast, Focus
Adaptable Structure Teaching, and

Maximizing the Impact of Coaching Cycles.

Talk to you soon!